Reservations for Domestic Portuguese Services

Post by Phil Richards
Can anyone confirm whether or not reservations for domestic Portuguese
Alfa Pendular & IC services can be booked through either the DB or
SNCB/NMBS booking systems?

I am afraid not. I tried that in 1999-2000, both from Bruges Station, and
from DB France on Avenue de l'Opéra in Paris.

There are some rail agencies in the UK who use

Post by Phil Richards
these systems, so at least the travelling public have the option of being
able to shop around different outlets using different systems.

Apart than the Sud Expreso to Hendaye and the Lusitania to Madrid, I m
afraid Portuguese trains are not bookable from abroad. I m not even sure
whether one can buy a ticket for the 2 daily DMUs Vigo-Oporto.

There were even problems to book on the short-lived Rapido "Eça Queiroz" ...

IIRC, RENFE did some representation for CP in Paris, before they closed down
their agency in 1992...

As I understand, Iberrail is unable to reserve on CP domestic services,
either.

Post by Phil Richards
My main reason I'm asking is they are not possible through the system I'm
more familiar with (SNCF). With the Euro 2004 football matches coming up,
demand for domestic services for visiting England (amongst other
countries) fans is going to be quite high and many prospective visitors
don't like the idea of being told to just book the trains once out there.

I m afraid they will have to put up with that :-(

IIRC, appreciable frequency increases are in sight on Lisbon-Faro, together
with some extra services on Lisbon-Porto. I haven't heard of any special as
far as connections with France and Spain are concerned.

Best regards.

Phil

Phil Richards

2004-02-21 17:37:53 UTC

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:50:40 +0100 P.L.Guillemin

Post by P.L.Guillemin
I am afraid not. I tried that in 1999-2000, both from Bruges Station, and
from DB France on Avenue de l'Opéra in Paris.

Thanks for confirming that, Phil. I had an idea that might be the case
and I have a feeling CP domestic services aren't accessible via the
HERMES interface.

About 5 years ago, I got told as Lisboa Santa Apólonia station that I
couldn't book a seat on a compulsory reservation IC from the Algarve
back up to Barreiro on the other side of the Tagus! Possibly even the
CP's booking system isn't fully integrated within it's own network!

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Apart than the Sud Expreso to Hendaye and the Lusitania to Madrid, I m
afraid Portuguese trains are not bookable from abroad. I m not even sure
whether one can buy a ticket for the 2 daily DMUs Vigo-Oporto.

AFAIK the Sud Express and Lusitania reservation database are both looked
after by RENFE for both directions, therefore fully accessible through
HERMES. Both global priced trains, by the way.

Vigo to Porto can be booked through the SNCF system and no doubt any
railway in Europe could issue this on a normal TCV ticket. They are non-
reservable trains, just an "open ticket" is all that is necessary. The
same goes for say Lisboa to Porto for example, the ticket could be issued
as a normal TCV, just no seat booking is possible.

I m afraid they will have to put up with that :-(

No doubt CP staff will get hassled, probably many football fans
travelling around with Euro Domino and Inter Rail passes boarding the
IC/Alfa trains unreserved.

--
Phil Richards, London, UK
European Rail Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/europeanrail/

P.L.Guillemin

2004-02-21 19:59:24 UTC

Phil Richards <***@blueyonder.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
***@News.Individual.NET...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:50:40 +0100 P.L.Guillemin

Post by P.L.Guillemin
I am afraid not. I tried that in 1999-2000, both from Bruges Station, and
from DB France on Avenue de l'Opéra in Paris.

Thanks for confirming that, Phil. I had an idea that might be the case
and I have a feeling CP domestic services aren't accessible via the
HERMES interface.

Things may change once there are more services running between Portugal and
the rest of Europe.

About 5 years ago, I got told as Lisboa Santa Apólonia station that I
couldn't book a seat on a compulsory reservation IC from the Algarve
back up to Barreiro on the other side of the Tagus! Possibly even the
CP's booking system isn't fully integrated within it's own network!

Now that the Ponte do 25 de Abril hosts a dual-gauge railway line, things
may have hopefully changed.

Still, I really wonder how things worked for the Comboio Azul Oporto-Faro...

In France, it was almost impossible to book on a continental train from
Corsica until SOCRATE-Résarail was operational in 1993.

AFAIK the Sud Express and Lusitania reservation database are both looked
after by RENFE for both directions,

Even when running from Portugal???

therefore fully accessible through
HERMES. Both global priced trains, by the way.

The Lusitania has always been globally-priced as a Trenhotel, but IIRC, fare
structure is closer to those charged for internal Trenhotel than for those
of Elipsos.

Sud-Expreso remained subject to TCV+Reservation+Supplement for a very
longtime. AFAIK, there are no through fares with the connecting TGV
Paris<->Irun/Hendaye, but there will be definitely such fares if it is
reinstated back until Paris.

"Eça Queiroz" had a dual system, where global fares coexisted with
TCV+Supplement+Reservation, as on the Trenhotel services to
France/Switzerland/Italy until the early-90s.

Vigo to Oporto can be booked through the SNCF system and no doubt any
railway in Europe could issue this on a normal TCV ticket. They are non-
reservable trains,

They might be "upgraded" to complusory booking if CP Railcars are replaced
with cascaded TRD 594s, which has been on the agenda for some time.

just an "open ticket" is all that is necessary. The
same goes for say Lisboa to Porto for example, the ticket could be issued
as a normal TCV, just no seat booking is possible.

Which means you can only use the desperately slow IR services if the worst
comes to the worst...

I m afraid they will have to put up with that :-(

No doubt CP staff will get hassled, probably many football fans
travelling around with Euro Domino and Inter Rail passes boarding the
IC/Alfa trains unreserved.

Maybe CP will enforce compulsory booking in a pre-emptive way, with
access-controlled platforms, as in France, Spain, London St Pancras or
Paddington... At the very least, I wouldn' be surprised if they did that for
Alfa Pendular services.

Best regards.

Phil

Phil Richards

2004-02-22 00:44:53 UTC

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:59:24 +0100 P.L.Guillemin

Post by Phil Richards
AFAIK the Sud Express and Lusitania reservation database are both
looked after by RENFE for both directions,

Even when running from Portugal???

To the best of my knowledge, yes. It is not uncommon for one railway to
maintain the reservation database for international trains in both
directions. Even before it became Artesia, there was a short period in
the late 1990s when SNCF looked after reservations for ex Italy to Paris
overnight trains.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Sud-Expreso remained subject to TCV+Reservation+Supplement for a very
longtime. AFAIK, there are no through fares with the connecting TGV
Paris<->Irun/Hendaye, but there will be definitely such fares if it is
reinstated back until Paris.

No through fares, SNCF providing structure to the Spanish border, global
pricing nowadays to Lisboa.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Maybe CP will enforce compulsory booking in a pre-emptive way, with
access-controlled platforms, as in France, Spain, London St Pancras or
Paddington... At the very least, I wouldn' be surprised if they did that for
Alfa Pendular services.

Maybe with Police enforcements to control the football fans....

--
Phil Richards, London, UK
European Rail Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/europeanrail/

P.L.Guillemin

2004-02-22 11:00:56 UTC

Post by Phil Richards

Maybe with Police enforcements to control the football fans....

That was the case in France in 1998, where access control was experienced at
a large scale for the first time since 1978...

Helmut Uttenthaler

2004-02-22 09:35:51 UTC

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Sud-Expreso remained subject to TCV+Reservation+Supplement for a very
longtime.

In 1999 I travelled with this train (seating car Porto - Hendaye) with
Interrail+reservation (issued in Algeciras, ESP 500/EUR 3), but _without_
supplement.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
AFAIK, there are no through fares with the connecting TGV
Paris<->Irun/Hendaye, but there will be definitely such fares if it is
reinstated back until Paris.

Will it be extended to/from Paris? When?
Are timetable details known?

I heared of such plans already some years ago, but nothing happened yet...

--
Helmut Uttenthaler,
Graz

P.L.Guillemin

2004-02-22 11:01:43 UTC

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Sud-Expreso remained subject to TCV+Reservation+Supplement for a very
longtime.

In 1999 I travelled with this train (seating car Porto - Hendaye) with
Interrail+reservation (issued in Algeciras, ESP 500/EUR 3), but _without_
supplement.

The Suppplement was actually very small and included a reservation fee.
Conversely, the pre-1994 Sud-Express was subject to a relatively high
supplement in Spain and Portugal.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
AFAIK, there are no through fares with the connecting TGV
Paris<->Irun/Hendaye, but there will be definitely such fares if it is
reinstated back until Paris.

Will it be extended to/from Paris? When?
Are timetable details known?
I heared of such plans already some years ago, but nothing happened yet...

That has been on the agenda since 1998. CP have placed options for 2-3 Talgo
sleeper sets, just in case.

Journey times would have been in the region of 17hours at a first stage,
with 200kph-running in France. Subsequent Time savings would have been
feasible, primarily thanks to reconstruction works on Oporto-Lisbon.

Contrary to other Trenhotel services, there would have been a higher share
of seated-accommodation (undecided between normal and sleeperette seats).
The train would have called at various places in Portugal (Pombal, Fatima,
Coimbra, Guarda, and some small-sized cities in the Beira Alta) and France
(like Orléans, Blois, Tours, Poitiers, Bordeaux, Bayonne), but it may not
have called at any station in Spain, save Salamanca and San Sebastian.

It was hoped that this service would run as from 2003, but nothing has come.
Running in France reportedly remains a problem...

"Sud-Expreso" has now a very limited formation:

_ 1 A10n (DEV Inox-style) of CP
_ 1 B11n (DEV Inox-style) of CP
_ 1 WRn (DEV-Inox style) of CP
_ 1 Bc10x-9600 of RENFE
_ 1 WL UH (refurbished) of CP

Seating-cars are grossly substandard, while the Spanish couchette car is
poorly-kept. WL UH is the only decent car used on this train. If RENFE
provided all the rolling-stock, that train could be classified as 160A
instead of 140N in Spain, with full air-conditioning.

I really wonder whether this meager formation will be extended for the Euro
2004.

Conversion into a Talgo train is unlikely to happen if this train remains
barred North of Hendaye, as revenue would remain too weak to fund the new
rolling-stock. Loadings are reported to be low save in Summer, and it seems
that the post-1994 "Sud-Expreso" can not do better than the "Eça Queiroz".

Best regards.

Phil

Helmut Uttenthaler

2004-02-22 13:13:40 UTC

Post by P.L.Guillemin
_ 1 A10n (DEV Inox-style) of CP
_ 1 B11n (DEV Inox-style) of CP
_ 1 WRn (DEV-Inox style) of CP
_ 1 Bc10x-9600 of RENFE
_ 1 WL UH (refurbished) of CP
Seating-cars are grossly substandard, while the Spanish couchette car
is poorly-kept. WL UH is the only decent car used on this train. If
RENFE provided all the rolling-stock, that train could be classified
as 160A instead of 140N in Spain, with full air-conditioning.
I really wonder whether this meager formation will be extended for
the Euro 2004.
Conversion into a Talgo train is unlikely to happen if this train
remains barred North of Hendaye, as revenue would remain too weak to
fund the new rolling-stock. Loadings are reported to be low save in
Summer,

...I remember that the train had about 14 cars in summer 1999. A very high
percentage of passengers seemed to were Interrailers like me....

--
Helmut Uttenthaler,
Graz

P.L.Guillemin

2004-02-22 14:43:38 UTC

Post by P.L.Guillemin
_ 1 A10n (DEV Inox-style) of CP
_ 1 B11n (DEV Inox-style) of CP
_ 1 WRn (DEV-Inox style) of CP
_ 1 Bc10x-9600 of RENFE
_ 1 WL UH (refurbished) of CP
I really wonder whether this meager formation will be extended for
the Euro 2004.
Loadings are reported to be low save in
Summer,

...I remember that the train had about 14 cars in summer 1999.

These were still the days, with through cars to Oporto.

In the late-80s, that Train could have up to 20 cars South of Hendaye,
including 8 French couchette cars and 4 Car Transporters, both mounted on
interchangeable bogies...

North of Hendaye, the French Train was also quite long, and also conveyed
through cars between Paris and Vigo/Alicante, and also a few to Santiago,
depending on pilgrim's demand.

A very high

Post by Helmut Uttenthaler
percentage of passengers seemed to were Interrailers like me....

Which is all but a sign of long-term sustainability South of the Pyrenees.

Estrella services now run with very reduced formations, some of them being
devoid of any catering facilities, which had always been very uncommon in
Spain.

Eg:

204-205 "Costa Vasca"

Irun-Madrid: A12tv-12000+Bc10x-9600+WL26x (3 cars)
Irun-Bilbao: A10x-10000+WL26x (2 cars)

370-373 "Costa Brava" Madrid-Cerbère and 944-941 "Media Luna"
Madrid-Algesiras
A10x-10000+BR4x-10800+Bc10x-9600+WL26x (4 cars)

"Costa Verde" (Madrid-Gijon/Santander):
A12t-9000+WL26x (2 cars on each branch)

All in all, not very good news for Interrailers...

Best regards.

Phil

Ulf Kutzner

2004-02-24 12:12:57 UTC

...I remember that the train had about 14 cars in summer 1999.

These were still the days, with through cars to Oporto.
In the late-80s, that Train could have up to 20 cars South of Hendaye,

Or could be split in one Irún - Porto and one Irún - Lisboa.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
including 8 French couchette cars and 4 Car Transporters, both mounted on
interchangeable bogies...
North of Hendaye, the French Train was also quite long, and also conveyed
through cars between Paris and Vigo/Alicante,

I have seen a through car to Alicante but never found it in the
timetables. Could have attracted too many passengers.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
and also a few to Santiago,
depending on pilgrim's demand.

But not published for normal travelers?

Post by P.L.Guillemin
A very high

Post by Helmut Uttenthaler
percentage of passengers seemed to were Interrailers like me....

Which is all but a sign of long-term sustainability South of the Pyrenees.

How much money RENFE gets from an interrailer on Irún - Fuentes de
Onoro?

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Estrella services now run with very reduced formations, some of them being
devoid of any catering facilities, which had always been very uncommon in
Spain.
204-205 "Costa Vasca"
Irun-Madrid: A12tv-12000+Bc10x-9600+WL26x (3 cars)

But again should be more in summer.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
Irun-Bilbao: A10x-10000+WL26x (2 cars)

Err, not Irún - Bilbao.

Post by P.L.Guillemin
370-373 "Costa Brava" Madrid-Cerbère and 944-941 "Media Luna"
Madrid-Algesiras
A10x-10000+BR4x-10800+Bc10x-9600+WL26x (4 cars)
A12t-9000+WL26x (2 cars on each branch)
All in all, not very good news for Interrailers...

Hmm.

Regards, ULF

P.L.Guillemin

2004-02-24 13:50:38 UTC