Europe-Asia rail tunnel opens today

[Graeme Wall]

A rail tunnel under the Bosphorus opens today. Heralded as a link in a
route between Europe and China.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24721779>

[Klaus von der Heyde]

Post by Graeme Wall
A rail tunnel under the Bosphorus opens today. Heralded as a link
in a route between Europe and China.

From what was mentioned on TV today, it is more like a intra-city
rapid transit route. Will freight trains even be allowed in the
tunnel?

Klaus

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Klaus von der Heyde

Post by Graeme Wall
A rail tunnel under the Bosphorus opens today. Heralded as a link
in a route between Europe and China.

From what was mentioned on TV today, it is more like a intra-city
rapid transit route. Will freight trains even be allowed in the
tunnel?
Klaus

Yes. The tunnel, as far as I know, has 3 tracks. Two are for suburban
traffic (from Gebze to Halkali) and the third one is for long distance,
both passenger and freight.

However, trains from Europe to China along this route are still far
away ;

- first of all, the line to Iran still requires a passage on a lake
Van ferry, which can embark 10-12 rail vehicles maximum, are slow and
old, and take 6 hours to cross. Not appropriate for mile-long container
trains. TCDD is supposed to study an alternative, but it's been
announced for decades already, with nothing concrete yet in sight
today.

- then once in Iran, you can head towards Turkmenistan and central
Asia, but that requires a gauge change, like on the transsib, and far
more border crossings, with the associated bureacracy nightmares. So
no reason to prefer this route over the well established transsib one.

- Or you can head towards Pakistan, which requires crossing a very
troubled and unsecure territory, and India, but once there it is a
dead end. There are no rail connections going further east.

If the troubles in Pakistan settle down, and if a lake Van alternative
comes to light, then this route might become a land bridge between
Europe and India. But for China, there are far better alternatives.

In the very long term, the UNESCAP wet dreams might become reality,
and an India-Burma-Thailand rail connection could be built. But if it
happens, it will be metre-gauge (as are all railways in south-east
Asia today) and thus still require gauge change or trans-shipment.
So still far from ideal. And who knows, it will take so long to
realize,
that in the mean time, cost of labour in Europe and Asia will get even,
and cheap labor work de-localized to Africa or South America. Back to
square one...

[Nobody]

On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 22:08:20 +0100, Marc Van Dyck

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Klaus von der Heyde

Post by Graeme Wall
A rail tunnel under the Bosphorus opens today. Heralded as a link
in a route between Europe and China.

From what was mentioned on TV today, it is more like a intra-city
rapid transit route. Will freight trains even be allowed in the
tunnel?
Klaus

Yes. The tunnel, as far as I know, has 3 tracks. Two are for suburban
traffic (from Gebze to Halkali) and the third one is for long distance,
both passenger and freight.
However, trains from Europe to China along this route are still far
away ;
- first of all, the line to Iran still requires a passage on a lake
Van ferry, which can embark 10-12 rail vehicles maximum, are slow and
old, and take 6 hours to cross. Not appropriate for mile-long container
trains. TCDD is supposed to study an alternative, but it's been
announced for decades already, with nothing concrete yet in sight
today.
- then once in Iran, you can head towards Turkmenistan and central
Asia, but that requires a gauge change, like on the transsib, and far
more border crossings, with the associated bureacracy nightmares. So
no reason to prefer this route over the well established transsib one.
- Or you can head towards Pakistan, which requires crossing a very
troubled and unsecure territory...

I thought the now-completed Bam-Zahedan connection in Iran was already
producing a small amount of Pakistan-westwards traffic?

Post by Marc Van Dyck
and India, but once there it is a
dead end. There are no rail connections going further east.
If the troubles in Pakistan settle down, and if a lake Van alternative
comes to light, then this route might become a land bridge between
Europe and India. But for China, there are far better alternatives.

UNESCAP wet dreams... heh heh, that's what wakes me up in the middle
of the night as a railfan!

Post by Marc Van Dyck
In the very long term, the UNESCAP wet dreams might become reality,
and an India-Burma-Thailand rail connection could be built. But if it
happens, it will be metre-gauge (as are all railways in south-east
Asia today) and thus still require gauge change or trans-shipment.
So still far from ideal. And who knows, it will take so long to
realize,
that in the mean time, cost of labour in Europe and Asia will get even,
and cheap labor work de-localized to Africa or South America. Back to
square one...

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Nobody
On Fri, 01 Nov 2013 22:08:20 +0100, Marc Van Dyck

Post by Marc Van Dyck
- Or you can head towards Pakistan, which requires crossing a very
troubled and unsecure territory...

I thought the now-completed Bam-Zahedan connection in Iran was already
producing a small amount of Pakistan-westwards traffic?

Not while the locals keep blowing things up.

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Nobody
I thought the now-completed Bam-Zahedan connection in Iran was already
producing a small amount of Pakistan-westwards traffic?

There has been a kind of "test" container train between Lahore and
Istanbul, shortly after the Bam-Zahedan link finally opened but that
was for "demonstration", I never heard about regular trafic. The
Waziristan needs to be seriously secured first. I hope it will happen
one day because I really want to go all the way by train to India (have
been to Iran already) but I'm not holding my breath.

[Nick Fotis]

An interesting page shows a planned branch from Kars to the Iran border:

http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/

(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
Loading Image...
)

N.F.

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Nick Fotis
http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/
(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
http://simendiferdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/konvansiyonel2023harita.png
)
N.F.

Yes that's probably the most interesting solution. In fact it's not
directly to Iran but to the Natchikevan exclave of Azerbaijan, and
from there there is an existing line reaching the Iranian network
at Jolfe, electrified all the way. It avoids Armenia as well as the
difficult terrain around lake Van (I have been there, it's not a joke),
and the line to Kars will be modernized for the BTK project. I would
love to see that one done...

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Nick Fotis
http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/
(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
http://simendiferdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/konvansiyonel2023harita.png
)
N.F.

Yes that's probably the most interesting solution. In fact it's not
directly to Iran but to the Natchikevan exclave of Azerbaijan, and
from there there is an existing line reaching the Iranian network
at Jolfe, electrified all the way. It avoids Armenia as well as the
difficult terrain around lake Van (I have been there, it's not a joke),
and the line to Kars will be modernized for the BTK project. I would
love to see that one done...

Isn't Iran friends with Armenia but not with Azerbaijan, which is
friends with Israel. Meanwhile Turkey and Armenia have issues, but
Turkey gets on with Azerbaijan which doesn't like Armenia?

(I don't think even The Guardian has yet worked out a way that this is
all Britain's fault!)

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Nick Fotis
http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/
(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
http://simendiferdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/konvansiyonel2023harita.png
)
N.F.

Yes that's probably the most interesting solution. In fact it's not
directly to Iran but to the Natchikevan exclave of Azerbaijan, and
from there there is an existing line reaching the Iranian network
at Jolfe, electrified all the way. It avoids Armenia as well as the
difficult terrain around lake Van (I have been there, it's not a joke),
and the line to Kars will be modernized for the BTK project. I would
love to see that one done...

Isn't Iran friends with Armenia but not with Azerbaijan, which is friends
with Israel. Meanwhile Turkey and Armenia have issues, but Turkey gets on
with Azerbaijan which doesn't like Armenia?
(I don't think even The Guardian has yet worked out a way that this is all
Britain's fault!)

As far as I know, Iran does not have problems with any of its
neighbours.

They have good relashionships with Azerbaijan, and are building a new
line (branching off the line to Tabriz) to reach Astana, border town
with Azerbaijan on the Caspian sea. From there, they will have a
connection - with a break of gauge - the the ex-USSR network, which
they once had through Armenia and Georgia, but which is now severed in
multiple places (once existed a weekly train Moscow-Sotchi-Tbilissi-
Yerevan-Tabriz-Teheran - 5 days, wow!).

There is also a projected line to Armenia bypassing the Natchikevan
exclave, but given the difficulty of the terrain in Armenia, and the
financial state of this country, I think this is pure wishful thinking.

Pictures of the Astana line in construction (Qazvin-Rasht-Anzali Rwy)
on http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=397034&page=34

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Nick Fotis
http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/
(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
http://simendiferdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/konvansiyonel2023harita.png
)
N.F.

Yes that's probably the most interesting solution. In fact it's not
directly to Iran but to the Natchikevan exclave of Azerbaijan, and
from there there is an existing line reaching the Iranian network
at Jolfe, electrified all the way. It avoids Armenia as well as the
difficult terrain around lake Van (I have been there, it's not a joke),
and the line to Kars will be modernized for the BTK project. I would
love to see that one done...

Isn't Iran friends with Armenia but not with Azerbaijan, which is
friends with Israel. Meanwhile Turkey and Armenia have issues, but
Turkey gets on with Azerbaijan which doesn't like Armenia?
(I don't think even The Guardian has yet worked out a way that this is
all Britain's fault!)

As far as I know, Iran does not have problems with any of its
neighbours.
They have good relashionships with Azerbaijan, and are building a new
line (branching off the line to Tabriz) to reach Astana, border town
with Azerbaijan on the Caspian sea. From there, they will have a
connection - with a break of gauge - the the ex-USSR network, which
they once had through Armenia and Georgia, but which is now severed in
multiple places (once existed a weekly train Moscow-Sotchi-Tbilissi-
Yerevan-Tabriz-Teheran - 5 days, wow!).
There is also a projected line to Armenia bypassing the Natchikevan
exclave, but given the difficulty of the terrain in Armenia, and the
financial state of this country, I think this is pure wishful thinking.
Pictures of the Astana line in construction (Qazvin-Rasht-Anzali Rwy)
on http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=397034&page=34

Is that Azerbaijan the country or the province?

I find it hard to figure out what is going on round there, as
English-language media reports don't really seem to distinguish between
"is up and running","is now being built", "might once day be built",
"has been sketched on the back of whatever the Islamic world has instead
of beer mats" and "seems like a good idea according to some random
bloke on teh internets".

[Marc Van Dyck]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Nick Fotis
http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/
(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
http://simendiferdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/konvansiyonel2023harita.png
)
N.F.

Yes that's probably the most interesting solution. In fact it's not
directly to Iran but to the Natchikevan exclave of Azerbaijan, and
from there there is an existing line reaching the Iranian network
at Jolfe, electrified all the way. It avoids Armenia as well as the
difficult terrain around lake Van (I have been there, it's not a joke),
and the line to Kars will be modernized for the BTK project. I would
love to see that one done...

Isn't Iran friends with Armenia but not with Azerbaijan, which is
friends with Israel. Meanwhile Turkey and Armenia have issues, but
Turkey gets on with Azerbaijan which doesn't like Armenia?
(I don't think even The Guardian has yet worked out a way that this is
all Britain's fault!)

As far as I know, Iran does not have problems with any of its
neighbours.
They have good relashionships with Azerbaijan, and are building a new
line (branching off the line to Tabriz) to reach Astana, border town
with Azerbaijan on the Caspian sea. From there, they will have a
connection - with a break of gauge - the the ex-USSR network, which
they once had through Armenia and Georgia, but which is now severed in
multiple places (once existed a weekly train Moscow-Sotchi-Tbilissi-
Yerevan-Tabriz-Teheran - 5 days, wow!).
There is also a projected line to Armenia bypassing the Natchikevan
exclave, but given the difficulty of the terrain in Armenia, and the
financial state of this country, I think this is pure wishful thinking.
Pictures of the Astana line in construction (Qazvin-Rasht-Anzali Rwy)
on http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=397034&page=34

Is that Azerbaijan the country or the province?
I find it hard to figure out what is going on round there, as
English-language media reports don't really seem to distinguish between "is
up and running","is now being built", "might once day be built", "has been
sketched on the back of whatever the Islamic world has instead of beer mats"
and "seems like a good idea according to some random bloke on teh internets".

Both, actually. The line will cross the Iranian province of Azerbaijan,
before reaching the country of Azerbaijan at the border town of Astara
(and not Astana, as I mistakenly wrote in my previous post, sorry for
that). And for this one, we know for sure it is in construction.
Although it still means nothing, I know, given the habit they have over
there to start projects and then leave them inactive for years. When I
was there in 2009, I saw the construction of the line to Orumieh, also
in the Azerbaijan province ; although very short, it's still not in
service today...

[Nobody]

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 22:19:42 +0100, Marc Van Dyck

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Marc Van Dyck

Post by Nick Fotis
http://railturkey.org/2013/07/11/railway-targets-2023/
(a somewhat higher resolution of the planned network is shown at
http://simendiferdotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/konvansiyonel2023harita.png
)
N.F.

Yes that's probably the most interesting solution. In fact it's not
directly to Iran but to the Natchikevan exclave of Azerbaijan, and
from there there is an existing line reaching the Iranian network
at Jolfe, electrified all the way. It avoids Armenia as well as the
difficult terrain around lake Van (I have been there, it's not a joke),
and the line to Kars will be modernized for the BTK project. I would
love to see that one done...

Isn't Iran friends with Armenia but not with Azerbaijan, which is
friends with Israel. Meanwhile Turkey and Armenia have issues, but
Turkey gets on with Azerbaijan which doesn't like Armenia?
(I don't think even The Guardian has yet worked out a way that this is
all Britain's fault!)

As far as I know, Iran does not have problems with any of its
neighbours.
They have good relashionships with Azerbaijan, and are building a new
line (branching off the line to Tabriz) to reach Astana, border town
with Azerbaijan on the Caspian sea. From there, they will have a
connection - with a break of gauge - the the ex-USSR network, which
they once had through Armenia and Georgia, but which is now severed in
multiple places (once existed a weekly train Moscow-Sotchi-Tbilissi-
Yerevan-Tabriz-Teheran - 5 days, wow!).
There is also a projected line to Armenia bypassing the Natchikevan
exclave, but given the difficulty of the terrain in Armenia, and the
financial state of this country, I think this is pure wishful thinking.
Pictures of the Astana line in construction (Qazvin-Rasht-Anzali Rwy)
on http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=397034&page=34

Is that Azerbaijan the country or the province?
I find it hard to figure out what is going on round there, as
English-language media reports don't really seem to distinguish between "is
up and running","is now being built", "might once day be built", "has been
sketched on the back of whatever the Islamic world has instead of beer mats"
and "seems like a good idea according to some random bloke on teh internets".

Both, actually. The line will cross the Iranian province of Azerbaijan,
before reaching the country of Azerbaijan at the border town of Astara
(and not Astana, as I mistakenly wrote in my previous post, sorry for
that). And for this one, we know for sure it is in construction.
Although it still means nothing, I know, given the habit they have over
there to start projects and then leave them inactive for years. When I
was there in 2009, I saw the construction of the line to Orumieh, also
in the Azerbaijan province ; although very short, it's still not in
service today...

Yeah, wuz just about to interject that! Astana's the cap. of
Kazakhstan.