Discussion:
Trenitalia crossborder problems
(too old to reply)
Jon Passenger
2010-01-13 22:01:59 UTC
Permalink
It seems that The Man in Seat Sixty-One has (after relatively muted
criticism) finally lost patience with Trenitalia's international
efforts.


"More problems from Trenitalia, easily Europe's most incompetent
railway..."

( see http://www.seat61.com/Whatsnew.htm )

I know what he means. When we travelled Paris - Firenze in October 09
EN 227 was cheap but had no edible food, was extremely tatty and ran
very late (should have been been to Roma but it was so late we
switched to the AV).

Does anyone know what's going on? Are services being deliberately run
down so that the new (privatised) operators look better?


Jon
Phil Richards
2010-01-14 08:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Passenger
It seems that The Man in Seat Sixty-One has (after relatively muted
criticism) finally lost patience with Trenitalia's international
efforts.
"More problems from Trenitalia, easily Europe's most incompetent
railway..."
( see http://www.seat61.com/Whatsnew.htm )
He has some valid points. In the last couple of years, Italy has lost
some good connections over its borders thanks to mismanagements of these
consortiums.
Post by Jon Passenger
I know what he means. When we travelled Paris - Firenze in October 09
EN 227 was cheap but had no edible food, was extremely tatty and ran
very late
Artesia night services have been going steadily downhill for years
especially the condition of the sleeper cars. If only Elipsos could take
over the route.....
Post by Jon Passenger
(should have been been to Roma but it was so late we
switched to the AV).
Did you have to pay for the fare Firenze to Roma?
Post by Jon Passenger
Does anyone know what's going on? Are services being deliberately run
down so that the new (privatised) operators look better?
Going back to Seat 61, he mentions that international trains from
München to Italy are getting pathed behind slow domestic trains.
--
Phil Richards, London, UK
3,600+ railway photos since 1980 at:
http://europeanrail.fotopic.net
http://britishrail.fotopic.net
Oliver Schnell
2010-01-14 09:14:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Richards
Going back to Seat 61, he mentions that international trains from
München to Italy are getting pathed behind slow domestic trains.
Not really. DB/ÖBB did not get the paths the EC trains had last year as
TI blocked them by virtual trains which never run (it is heard, they
were never supposed to run, but that can not be proven). That is no problem
in South->North direction, as the EC trains now leave Verona a bit later,
but still arrive at Innsbruck like they did in 2009, but in the other direction
this unables a fast connection Verona towards Milan (arr is at 07, dep
of ES to Milan is at 02 for the time being).

According to a post in a German forum, DB/ÖBB now make an attempt to get
the original planned paths from 1st of March.
--
Oliver Schnell
Willms
2010-01-15 11:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Am Thu, 14 Jan 2010 09:14:51 UTC, schrieb Oliver Schnell
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Phil Richards
Going back to Seat 61, he mentions that international trains from
München to Italy are getting pathed behind slow domestic trains.
Not really. DB/ÖBB did not get the paths the EC trains had last year as
TI blocked them by virtual trains which never run (it is heard, they
were never supposed to run, but that can not be proven).
Well, Trenitalia was the operator of the cross-border EC trains on
the Italian network, and they kept the paths which were theirs. ÖBB
and DB did no longer want to use this cooperation with TI, so had to
apply for their own, new paths as Open Access operator on the RFI
network.

A new operator turned up, offering a new service to be run in
competition with the incumbent operator. Why should TI give up its
paths to a competitor?

What might be coming is that Trenitalia runs its own thru services
to Innsbruck and Munich using the former Cisalpino ETR470 which are
now owned by Trenitalia. The article in the Swiss "Eisenbahnrevue
International" on the splitup of Cisalpino gave some hints in that
direction.


Cheers,
L.W.
Giovanni Drogo
2010-01-14 16:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Richards
Going back to Seat 61, he mentions that international trains from
München to Italy are getting pathed behind slow domestic trains.
Not taken them recently (when I did, ... and it was a Dortmund [I guess]
- Ulm - Munich - Milan) I was pleased by the fact DB staff operated the
restaurant car all the way (including in italian territory) so I could
have lunch (I boarded in Ulm) and snack before arrival.

So I could be sort of pleased if DB manages such trains directly.

However (see a thread of mine some 3 weeks ago) it looks like Trenitalia
is not selling tickets for the residual Milan-Munich train, and not
advertising it in the timetables. Do not know if RFI (which is a
sister-company of TI in the FS group) can slow down DB trains (I would
not be surprised). Definitely what they did was to arrange that the
trains depart and arrive (*) from Milano Porta Garibaldi, not Centrale.

Which makes them useless for people needing to continue on long distance
trains.

The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
and I've recently discovered that there is not a single day train from
Villach to Tarvisio (despite a new line was built in Italy southwards of
Tarvisio).


(*) as a side humour point. The announcement in some (transit) stations
often say "train number xyz to Abcd arrives and departs from platform
pq". How could it depart from a platform different from the one where
it arrives ? :-)
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Theo Markettos
2010-01-15 00:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
(*) as a side humour point. The announcement in some (transit) stations
often say "train number xyz to Abcd arrives and departs from platform
pq". How could it depart from a platform different from the one where
it arrives ? :-)
I caught a sleeper from Salzburg earlier in the year. It arrived on
platform X, and decanted its passengers about 1h30 before the scheduled
departure time. It was then shunted into platform Y. Then was drawn
forward into a siding. Then a new train appeared in platform X. Then half
of that was shunted off. Then the first train was shunted back into
platform Y. Then another train arrived in platform X, and the portion in
platform Y was drawn forward and shunted onto it.

In this case the departure platform was also platform X, but with all that
shunting (which involved exchanges of lots of through cars from all over
Europe) there was no reason for it not to be something else.

FWIW that crossborder train to Italy (run by OeBB) was just fine.

Theo
Ulf Kutzner
2022-09-20 14:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
and I've recently discovered that there is not a single day train from
Villach to Tarvisio (despite a new line was built in Italy southwards of
Tarvisio).
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
Villach - Tarvisio Boscoverde - Milan from next December.
In the current timetable, it is Munich <-> Milan.

Regards, ULF
Giovanni Drogo
2022-09-22 07:55:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
Thanks for the answer after 12 years !!! :-)
Ulf Kutzner
2022-09-22 08:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
Thanks for the answer after 12 years !!! :-)
Great to have you here again...
Giovanni Drogo
2022-09-22 12:42:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Great to have you here again...
Never been away. mtre is still in my .newsrc, so I do a daily cursory
scan (in "catchup mode", only new messages). But usually no new posts
are found.

Unfortunately most Usenet newsgroups are deserted (except some comp.*
and a few others, and, unfortunately, some pestered by spammers or
fanatics).
Theo
2022-09-22 16:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Great to have you here again...
Never been away. mtre is still in my .newsrc, so I do a daily cursory
scan (in "catchup mode", only new messages). But usually no new posts
are found.
Unfortunately most Usenet newsgroups are deserted (except some comp.*
and a few others, and, unfortunately, some pestered by spammers or
fanatics).
uk.railway isn't doing too badly. Also discussing Trenitalia crossborder
problems:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/19/why-cant-i-book-a-train-how-avanti-west-coast-hit-the-buffers
(the border being the English/Scottish one)
Ulf Kutzner
2022-11-18 12:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
Thanks for the answer after
A bit faster this time, as developments are:

The coming overnight service has been rescheduled/extended to La Spezia.
Giovanni Drogo
2022-11-19 19:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
The coming overnight service has been rescheduled/extended to La Spezia.
When ? With the next winter timetable ? And which route ?
So far I see only an EN235 departing Milan around 9 pm (21:25 Lambrate)
which goes via Villach-Salzburg (not Brenner) reaching Munich at 09:21
(the old service via Verona-Brenner arrived much earlier before 7 am).

The Lambrate departure timetables marks it as TI (Trenitalia) buyt I
suspect it is OeBB
Ulf Kutzner
2022-11-20 13:41:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
The coming overnight service has been rescheduled/extended to La Spezia.
When ? With the next winter timetable ?
As far as I understand.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
And which route ?
Via Geno(v)a - Rapallo.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
So far I see only an EN235 departing Milan around 9 pm (21:25 Lambrate)
which goes via Villach-Salzburg (not Brenner) reaching Munich at 09:21
(the old service via Verona-Brenner arrived much earlier before 7 am).
The Lambrate departure timetables marks it as TI (Trenitalia) buyt I
suspect it is OeBB
Maybe Trenitalia may sell tickets?

Regards, ULF
Giovanni Drogo
2022-11-20 21:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
And which route ?
Via Geno(v)a - Rapallo.
I meant which route across the Alps (the other was obvious, I do not
know if any through train nowadays goes through the Pontremolese,
although there used to be some Milano-Livorno). In the past all through
trains from (Milano or Bologna to) Verona to Munich travelled via
Brenner (this applied to the old night Kurswagen, the daytime EC like
Leonardo da Vinci, and to the recent - some 5 years ago - daytime EC's
from Bologna, which required change at Verona for Milan, I took it
from/to Fortezza/Franzenfeste to change for S.Candido/Innichen ... I
guess it was an OeBB train operated by Trenord in Italy).

Now as I said EN235 goes via Villach-Salzburg (not Brenner)
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Lambrate departure timetables marks it as TI (Trenitalia) buyt I
suspect it is OeBB
Maybe Trenitalia may sell tickets?
This should not have any reference to the indication of the "operator"
on the timetables. AFAIK a ticket office, at least one at an RFI station
but not only (I bought a Milano-Chivasso-Aosta at Sesto SG where the
ticket office is Trenord, and the return at Aosta ... the trains I guess
are TN+TI and TI+TN ... but I would not swear on the Milan-Turin IR
being TN, although some Milan-Bologna IR are TPER), sells all kinds of
tickets.
Ulf Kutzner
2022-11-21 08:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
And which route ?
Via Geno(v)a - Rapallo.
I meant which route across the Alps (the other was obvious, I do not
know if any through train nowadays goes through the Pontremolese,
although there used to be some Milano-Livorno). In the past all through
trains from (Milano or Bologna to) Verona to Munich travelled via
Brenner (this applied to the old night Kurswagen, the daytime EC like
Leonardo da Vinci, and to the recent - some 5 years ago - daytime EC's
from Bologna, which required change at Verona for Milan, I took it
from/to Fortezza/Franzenfeste to change for S.Candido/Innichen ... I
guess it was an OeBB train operated by Trenord in Italy).
Now as I said EN235 goes via Villach-Salzburg (not Brenner)
Salzburg isn't that far from Munich but carriages shall be switched
at Villach Hbf from train 295.

Regards, ULF
Ulf Kutzner
2022-11-22 08:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Lambrate departure timetables marks it as TI (Trenitalia) buyt I
suspect it is OeBB
Maybe Trenitalia may sell tickets?
This should not have any reference to the indication of the "operator"
on the timetables. AFAIK a ticket office, at least one at an RFI station
but not only (I bought a Milano-Chivasso-Aosta at Sesto SG where the
ticket office is Trenord, and the return at Aosta ... the trains I guess
are TN+TI and TI+TN ... but I would not swear on the Milan-Turin IR
being TN, although some Milan-Bologna IR are TPER), sells all kinds of
tickets.
The TI website offers tickets for EC 326 from 9,90 Genova -> Rogoredo
for December 12th.

Looks like commercially there is a TI EC added to or within the
ÖBB NJ.

Regards, ULF

Ulf Kutzner
2022-11-21 08:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
The Milan-Munich night train (Kurswagen) is gone since several years,
There will be an overnight service from Munich to Genoa via
The coming overnight service has been rescheduled/extended to La Spezia.
When ? With the next winter timetable ? And which route ?
So far I see only an EN235 departing Milan around 9 pm (21:25 Lambrate)
which goes via Villach-Salzburg (not Brenner) reaching Munich at 09:21
(the old service via Verona-Brenner arrived much earlier before 7 am).
The Lambrate departure timetables marks it as TI (Trenitalia) buyt I
suspect it is OeBB
Strange, by the way, as it should be, for the period to come,
Rogoredo.

Regards, ULF
Giovanni Drogo
2022-11-21 16:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ulf Kutzner
Post by Giovanni Drogo
When ? With the next winter timetable ? And which route ?
So far I see only an EN235 departing Milan around 9 pm (21:25 Lambrate)
Strange, by the way, as it should be, for the period to come,
Rogoredo.
Not strange (the station) if it *will be* a relation between Ligury (La
Spezia, Genova) and Austria and Germany. It could serve Milan only
stopping at Rogoredo, then turning east after PM Trecca, unless it
reverses somewhere. The *current* train shoulds originate at Centrale
and stop also at Lambrate.

In the '80s (I should have an old timetable in a drawer) there were
sleeper relations to Chiasso-Basel-(Frankfurt, Amsterdam) (I believe
Milan-Munich were always Kurswagen reattached in Verona). There were at
least two in the late evening (the Amsterdam one left earlier), one
departed from Centrale, the other came from Genova or Bologna and
stopped at Lambrate ... I remember quite well the sleepers were at the
tail, often beyond the end of the platform !).

One can go through Lambrate coming from Genova or Bologna, if one goes
north (Chiasso) but not if one goes east (Verona), as the branch is
between Rogoredo and Lambrate.

There are some Rome-Turin Frecciarossa which, to avoid reversal at
Centrale, do stop at Rogoredo (they stop also at Garibaldi, I suppose to
avoid reversal ythey go through the "umbrella handle" ... but the few
times I was on one of those it was simpler to alight at Rogoredo and
take the underground ... I had an idea it was quicker anyhow).
Jon Passenger
2010-01-23 11:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Richards
Post by Jon Passenger
(should have been been to Roma but it was so late we
switched to the AV).
Did you have to pay for the fare Firenze to Roma?
We bought new tickets (AV direct to Napoli) - it never occurred to me
to enquire about compensation/getting alternative travel arrangements
sorted for us - possibly because brain wasn't working properly due to
Swiss customs cackling and stomping through the middle of the night.
Is there a good reason for these trains to run via Switzerland? I know
the Paris-Torino day trains manage to avoid it.

Jon
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2010-01-14 17:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Passenger
Does anyone know what's going on? Are services being deliberately run
down so that the new (privatised) operators look better?
Trenitalia is a completely overstaffed organization, locos still
operated with firemen etc. pp. .

So they have extremely high labour costs, more than any other railroad
in Western Europe, but can't charge more without losing passengers. This
begins to show in deferred maintenance.

Looking better than Trenitalia should be easy for a competently managed
private operator.



Hans-Joachim
--
Bitte von der Bahnsteigkante zurücktreten!

Loading Image...
Giovanni Drogo
2010-01-19 09:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Trenitalia is a completely overstaffed organization
It's about 20 years I'm hearing that, but I wonder on the reality of
such statement (I mean, in many areas, like e.g. Lombardy around Milan
and in general around large cities there is clear demand for more
trains, and in other areas demand could be encouraged with a more
frequent service ... how could this demand [running more trains] be
satisfied with less staff ?) and also I wonder on the tuning of such
statement (would you cut on travelling staff, or would you cut on office
staff, and plethoric incompetent managers ?).

As a passenger, who knows nothing of how a railway should be run, but a
keen train traveller, I can give you my impressions :

- if the trade unions say that it is safer to have two persons driving
a train, as a passenger concerned for safety I tend to trust them

- what I believe to have seen as a bad trend are cuts in maintenance
(I must say I travel more on Milan urban transport - where this
drop is clearly apparent - than on Trenitalia, but there are often
delays attributed to technical problem ... last yesterday when the
Milan-Bologna trains were diverted on the old line because of
"technical problems in Piacenza")

- what everybody has definitely seen is a bad trend in outsourcing
things like cleaning, with the result trains and stations are dirtier
(I have copy of an article about cleaning of Porta Garibaldi station
where they play the usual game of "scaricabarile" (unload-the-barrel)
where every part says it responsibility of some other part.

- what everybody has seen is a compartimentalization of the FS holding
in a lot of autonomous branches (RFI for the rails, Grandi Stazioni
for bigger stations, Centostazioni for middle size stations,
some part of Trenitalia for long distance "profit" trains, n other
parts of Trenitalia for regional trains in the n regions)

- what everybody has seen is a mess of different fares, and the
closure of station "services" like toilets, waiting rooms, and
ticket sales ... with the result that stations have become degraded,
and that ... buying a ticket has become very difficult ... not a wise
move to encourage passengers to travel (examples below).

- what is worse, is that one has seen investments and things done,
but slowly, badly and in expensive way.

I quoted a while ago the new line Udine-Tarvisio, apparently
underused. I can quote the uncountable time to build the Passante in
Milan. I can quote the Milan-Rome high speed line, which seems to
have worsened the service on local and regional services which should
have become better moving long distance trains on the new line). I
can quote the refurbishment of Milano Centrale transformed into a
place with no waiting rooms, no seats, no free toilets, and a zig-zag
of tapis roulant through an empty shopping mall and no clear
indications (example below). There has been a campaign recently on
Corriere della Sera about this, and Grandi Stazioni have been
compelled to reply ... one of the things I discovered was that the
architect who made the project is the same who did it for Roma
Termini (where they did a good job) but in Milan he was not involved
in the direction of works.

I have in front of me yesterday's Corriere della Sera economy
section, where it says that the cost per km of the done high speed
lines in Italy is 32 Meuro, while in Spain and France is 9-10 Meuro.
For lines under constructions the figures are 45 Meuro/km vs
15-13. Why ?

As an example, at Milano Centrale there are no longer any escalator
going straight up from road level to platform level. There is this
zig zag of ramps on either side. Now, at the bottom of the ramps
there are very useful signs

<- platform 1-24 platform 1-24 ->

Another ordinary life example. Yesterday I went to my mother home town,
a 15000 inhabitants place 50 km of Milan.

The station of such town (which has 2-4 trains per hour) has :

- a ticket office which is open from 6:00 to 12:00 only, and has
a degraded appearance, covered with signposts with various
announcements

- toilets (which through the glass look clean and in order) which
bear a notice "due to vandalism these toilets will be closed from
21:00 to 6:00" ... however at 16:45 they were closed

- a ticket vending machine which sells only regional tickets (what
should the inhabitants of the place do if they go to Brescia to
catch an Intercity or to Milan to catch an Eurostar ?)

- there was a piece of paper attached on the machine saying "it does
not accept credit cards, it does not accept debit cards, it does
not accept coins, it does not give change but a voucher to be
cashed at the ticket office" (another notice at the ticket office
said "vouchers can be cashed only before 10:00").

I saw a girl attempting to make a ticket ... she assumed she could
at least use a banknote. But the machine screen said instead "only
cards allowed" and below "these cards allowed" and the logo of a chip
card with FS logo that I've never seen anywhere else.

- ah, about regional tickets, I saw also a notice that said that
tickets for trains serving across two regions (which are no
longer called "inter-regional" but just regional) will no longer
be computed with the national fare, but adding up the two portions
of regional fares (where each region has its own). The notice said
something as a consequence that season card holders travellling on
express trains (but are there any left ?) will be considered as
without ticket.
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Looking better than Trenitalia should be easy for a competently managed
private operator.
I would subscribe that (also and especially) if you drop the word
"private". After all most managers of the present compartments,
subsidiaries or subholdings come from the private, or claim to follow
rules of private management.
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Oliver Schnell
2010-01-19 10:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Trenitalia is a completely overstaffed organization
It's about 20 years I'm hearing that, but I wonder on the reality of
such statement
Just calculate the ratio of passenger per country by rail or tonnes
kilometres divided by the number of employees at railways in each
country and you will get an idea of it.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
I have in front of me yesterday's Corriere della Sera economy
section, where it says that the cost per km of the done high speed
lines in Italy is 32 Meuro, while in Spain and France is 9-10 Meuro.
For lines under constructions the figures are 45 Meuro/km vs
15-13. Why ?
different geographic shapes, different planned usage of lines
(freight+passenger versus. passenger only)?
--
Oliver Schnell
Giovanni Drogo
2010-01-20 09:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
different geographic shapes, different planned usage of lines
(freight+passenger versus. passenger only)?
These are some of the reasons alleged in the article. Other are the
requests from local administrations (usually comuni, i.e. municipalities
... sometimes they allowed building houses close to the old tracks, and
now do not want to throw down such houses, but to build an entirely new
track bypassing the town ... see e.g. the Milano-Treviglio route), and
the need to build new road bridges etc. (but I suppose this will apply
also in other countries).

I'm more inclined to think of bribes or inflated costs due to obscure
agreements between firms and politicians.
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Marc Van Dyck
2010-01-20 10:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
different geographic shapes, different planned usage of lines
(freight+passenger versus. passenger only)?
If this is the case, then we should compare with prices of high
speed lines in Germany, where they are also used for freight.
Not the last one, Köln-Frankfurt, but well the previous ones,
right ? Someone has the figures ?
--
Marc Van Dyck
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2010-01-20 11:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Van Dyck
If this is the case, then we should compare with prices of high
speed lines in Germany, where they are also used for freight.
Not the last one, Köln-Frankfurt, but well the previous ones,
right ? Someone has the figures ?
Don't remember the exact figures, but more or less in the middle
between Spain and Italy.


Hans-Joachim
--
Bitte von der Bahnsteigkante zurücktreten!

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6360/img3889t.jpg
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2010-01-19 14:59:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
It's about 20 years I'm hearing that, but I wonder on the reality of
such statement (I mean, in many areas, like e.g. Lombardy around Milan
and in general around large cities there is clear demand for more
trains, and in other areas demand could be encouraged with a more
frequent service ... how could this demand [running more trains] be
satisfied with less staff ?)
Quite obviously, twice the number of trains could be operated with the
current driver staffing.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- if the trade unions say that it is safer to have two persons driving
a train, as a passenger concerned for safety I tend to trust them
...instead of wondering, why all those railroads around Italy use /one/
driver, and achieve a much better safety record.

In fact, the doublestaffing has /reduced/ the safety on rails in Italy,
because it delayed the installation of automatic train stop, and Italy
ended up with the worst safety record of all the major EU countries.
It has been a make-work scheme for train staff, at the expense of dead
passengers.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
I have in front of me yesterday's Corriere della Sera economy
section, where it says that the cost per km of the done high speed
lines in Italy is 32 Meuro, while in Spain and France is 9-10 Meuro.
For lines under constructions the figures are 45 Meuro/km vs
15-13. Why ?
The British build considerably more expensive than the Italians, and the
Greek take the money and get nothing built, not even years late.

Explanation ... well: Britain spends about as much money on lawyers,
consultants, project management, as the Spanish need for actually
building the line.

Projects of this size are very difficult to manage efficiently. You
need at least a small, very competent engineering force inhouse for
overlooking it. If the process is overlooked by a construction firm,
the project management has an interest in inflating costs. If it is
overlooked by consultants, these consultants are usually paid by
project size: Higher costs -> more money for them.

So the railroad network needs competent engineers to overlook the
process, and has to put these people at the right places. Many state
railroads suffered from the fact, that the state railroads were
among the last organizations, which a competent young engineer would
select for a career.

As well, there is the necessity, that the political side sets clear
goals and benchmarks for the railroad infrastructure. While Britain
has had horrible numbers for building and maintaining track, they
did at least learn from it, Network Rail now gets benchmarks for every
year, and has to report on it. So the conditions in Britain improve.
In Italy, they apparently don't.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Looking better than Trenitalia should be easy for a competently managed
private operator.
I would subscribe that (also and especially) if you drop the word
"private".
Agreed. In fact, results don't have that much to do with public or
private, but with management and company spirit. Some of the most
successful "private" operators in Germany, with lower cost and
higher quality than DB, are the AVG (owned by the city of Karlsruhe)
and Metronom (owned by Länder, but now partly sold to Arriva).


Hans-Joachim
--
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Willms
2010-01-19 20:51:45 UTC
Permalink
Am Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:59:27 UTC, schrieb Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
In fact, the doublestaffing has /reduced/ the safety on rails in Italy,
because it delayed the installation of automatic train stop, and Italy
ended up with the worst safety record of all the major EU countries.
It has been a make-work scheme for train staff, at the expense of dead
passengers.
Whow! Strong statement. Do you have numbers supporting that claim?
Show them!
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Giovanni Drogo
I have in front of me yesterday's Corriere della Sera economy
section, where it says that the cost per km of the done high speed
lines in Italy is 32 Meuro, while in Spain and France is 9-10 Meuro.
For lines under constructions the figures are 45 Meuro/km vs
15-13. Why ?
The British build considerably more expensive than the Italians, and the
Greek take the money and get nothing built, not even years late.
Explanation ... well: Britain spends about as much money on lawyers,
consultants, project management, as the Spanish need for actually
building the line.
The big difference is that on Great Britain they build in densely
populated areas, while in Spain in very sparsely populated areas. I
could think that in Spain land owners are glad that they can get money
for their land which would lay idle otherwise, while in Kent it would
be very difficult to acquire the necessary land.

But Mr. Zierke has his prejudices, and those wont be changed by
facts.


Cheers,
L.W.
Luca Logi
2010-01-28 13:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Quite obviously, twice the number of trains could be operated with the
current driver staffing.
Not sure. On a large number of regional trains, there is only one
driver, the second person in the cab often being the trainmaster that is
not a fully qualified engineer. As the labor agreement stipulates that
this can be done on regional trains not longer than 6 cars, depending on
having on track and on board the necessary safety systems, this has
caused the downgrading of a lot of trains to regional status
(occasionally, some fast trains are classified as regional for this
purpose).

The very last agreement, six months old or so, authorizes the use of a
single engineer - even without the trainmaster assistance - on all
trains, and will be gradually enforced.
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Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
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Giovanni Drogo
2010-01-28 14:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luca Logi
Not sure. On a large number of regional trains, there is only one
driver, the second person in the cab often being the trainmaster [...]
this has caused the downgrading of a lot of trains to regional status
(occasionally, some fast trains are classified as regional for this
purpose).
I wasn't aware this was the reason for the disappearance of
interregional trains (all trains not classified IC or higher are now
regional irrespective of how many regions they travel) ... I thought it
had to do with the way regions paid for the service (and the resulting
fare mess)

This excellent site (in Italian with some parts in English and German
too) should contain details http://www.miol.it/stagniweb
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Andrew Price
2010-01-19 19:38:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 19 Jan 2010 10:57:24 +0100, Giovanni Drogo
<***@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:

[---]
Post by Giovanni Drogo
I have in front of me yesterday's Corriere della Sera economy
section, where it says that the cost per km of the done high speed
lines in Italy is 32 Meuro, while in Spain and France is 9-10 Meuro.
For lines under constructions the figures are 45 Meuro/km vs
15-13. Why ?
Kickbacks (tangenti)?
Willms
2010-01-19 20:51:48 UTC
Permalink
Am Tue, 19 Jan 2010 09:57:24 UTC, schrieb Giovanni Drogo
Post by Giovanni Drogo
As a passenger, who knows nothing of how a railway should be run, but a
- if the trade unions say that it is safer to have two persons driving
a train, as a passenger concerned for safety I tend to trust them
Me too, nevertheless, the experiences with trains operated by a
single driver in other countries, including in high-speed trains and
freight trains running in the night, show -- that is at least my
impression -- that this has not led to a leap in railway accidents.

Although I know at least one railway accident in Germany, where a
second person in the cab could have prevented the accident: some years
ago, a young driver overlooked the sign indicating a slower speed due
to works on the line, and the train derailed.


Cheers,
L.W.
Neil Williams
2010-01-19 21:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Willms
Although I know at least one railway accident in Germany, where a
second person in the cab could have prevented the accident: some years
ago, a young driver overlooked the sign indicating a slower speed due
to works on the line, and the train derailed.
It has been alleged that one of the two big accidents on the GWML
could have been prevented by a second driver. I forget the details.

In general, though, trains in the UK are single-manned in the front
cab and there have not been major issues as a result. And whatever
can be said about the UK's privatised railway, it sounds a lot better
than the stories I'm hearing from Italy recently.

Neil
--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
Klaus von der Heyde
2010-01-19 17:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Jon Passenger
Does anyone know what's going on? Are services being deliberately
run down so that the new (privatised) operators look better?
Trenitalia is a completely overstaffed organization, locos still
operated with firemen etc. pp. .
Are other operators in Italy exempt from this rule?

Klaus
Giovanni Drogo
2010-01-20 09:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus von der Heyde
Are other operators in Italy exempt from this rule?
No idea, I usually don't look inside the front cabin to see how many
people are in there (e.g. for FNM now LeNord).

What I'm pretty sure is that Milan's metro trains have a single driver
(I know, as an affected user, that some of those drivers do strike with
ORSA, which is driver-only trade union ... on the other hand metro
drivers are under the "autoferrotranvieri" contract (with bus and tram
drivers) while FS train drivers are under the railway contract. Not sure
about private railways.

It should however be said that the work of a metro driver could be in a
not nice environment (underground) and boring, but I guess it's easier
than a surface train driver (no junctions and complex signalling, metro
trains just follow each other), and surely less stressing than a bus or
tram driver in the traffic.

Anyhow the impression of the passengers is that tram accidents, delays,
and technical failures (also on the metro, with bulk of M1 trains dating
back to 1964) have increased recently due to poorer maintenance.
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Hans-Joachim Zierke
2010-01-22 09:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus von der Heyde
Are other operators in Italy exempt from this rule?
Stadler has delivered normal GTW and FLIRT to regional operators.


Hans-Joachim
--
The spotter's t-shirt [tm]

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Valentin Brückel
2010-01-22 09:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Klaus von der Heyde
Are other operators in Italy exempt from this rule?
Stadler has delivered normal GTW and FLIRT to regional operators.
That does not neccessarily mean that they don't have to drive with two
people in the cab.

Val
Hans-Joachim Zierke
2010-01-22 11:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Valentin Brückel
That does not neccessarily mean that they don't have to drive with two
people in the cab.
There is no second seat in the cab, just a folding seat for an
instructor or similar situations.

http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/factsheets/GTW_FUC_0306_i.pdf



Hans-Joachim
--
The spotter's t-shirt [tm]

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Valentin Brückel
2010-01-22 12:32:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Post by Valentin Brückel
That does not neccessarily mean that they don't have to drive with two
people in the cab.
There is no second seat in the cab, just a folding seat for an
instructor or similar situations.
http://www.stadlerrail.com/media/uploads/factsheets/GTW_FUC_0306_i.pdf
I don't know about the specific regulations, but I remember from my one ride
Meran-Mals that there was a second person in the cab. When the train
stopped, he would get outside and watch the doors. Once all doors were
closed, the train did not get moving immediately, but would always wait
until the second man was back in the cab.

Val
Giovanni Drogo
2010-01-22 13:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Valentin Brückel
I don't know about the specific regulations, but I remember from my
one ride Meran-Mals that there was a second person in the cab.
Do not know that particular line, which is private.

I've seen the conductor or inspector (which we call controller) travel
in the cabin with the driver (or drivers ? who knows) on the
Milano-Mortara line. He alighted at each unmanned station to check
noboby was going in and out and signal the driver to depart.

I know because the station from where I returned had no ticket office
and all stamping machines out of order, so I had to look for the
controller to validate my ticket, and he was not passing in the cars to
check tickets, I had to hunt for him in the cabin, and wait the train
was moving before he could do with my ticket.
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Martin Theodor Ludwig
2010-01-15 21:33:44 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:01:59 -0800 (PST), Jon Passenger
Post by Jon Passenger
"More problems from Trenitalia, easily Europe's most incompetent
railway..." ( see http://www.seat61.com/Whatsnew.htm )
I've been looking for Trenitalia's 2010 car sleeper time tables. Their
respective English website being 1..2 years behind is not so exciting,
but currently also the Italian version is still at 2009. Calling an
official booking agency (if they'd know already something) resulted in
something like "one never knows (and has to try every day) when the
advance booking is actually opened - last year even the peak time in
August was opened with less than 2 weeks (instead of the officially
announced 3 months) of advance ..."

Regards, Martin
Willms
2010-01-16 15:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Am Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:33:44 UTC, schrieb Martin Theodor Ludwig
Post by Martin Theodor Ludwig
Post by Jon Passenger
"More problems from Trenitalia, easily Europe's most incompetent
railway..." ( see http://www.seat61.com/Whatsnew.htm )
I've been looking for Trenitalia's 2010 car sleeper time tables. Their
respective English website being 1..2 years behind is not so exciting,
but currently also the Italian version is still at 2009.
I read today in the Italian web publication "Ferrovie.it",
Post by Martin Theodor Ludwig
<http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2636>
that starting February 2010, both the national and international
night trains of Trenitalia are to be managed in common by CWL
(Compagnie des Wagons Lits, a subsidiary of the Accor hotel group)
and Wasteels. Until now, the article says, the national night
services have been managed by CWL, the international ones by
Wasteels.
Post by Martin Theodor Ludwig
<http://www.cwl-services.com>
<http://www.wasteels.fr>
Some memory pieces in my head relate to a serious economic crices
of the Wasteels group (international travel agency) in the past
years, up to a bancrupcy, which happened, it seems, in the fall
(autumn) of 2008.


Cheers,
L.W.
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