DEH 500

[Kimmo T. Lumirae]

Gentlemen,


In 1955, when Finnish State Railways VR decided to place an order for heavy
line duty diesel locos, 2000 hp, obviously six-axle, there were some
suggestions from Europe, among others DEH 500 from Netherlands. Now, I
cannot find any information of this loco; was it ever built (even any
prototype?). What kind of loco it would have been? Anyone has contacts to
Werkspoor, for instance?

In 1957 Werkspoor built the swiss-dutch RAm TEEŽs with a six axles and
2x1000 hp main engines. Would that have been the DEH 500 with double cabs?

(The VR decided to place an order of 42 pcs. Hr 12 -type (now Dr12) heavy
diesels, built in Finland by Lokomo and Valmet, which, asked SLM and BBC for
assistance. That is why Dr 12 has some similarities to SLM diesels, but is
fitted with MAN diesel instead of Sulzer; would that has been a question of
producing licenses as almost all parts of these magnificent loco were
license-built in Finland including the MAN diesel and BBC electric
equipment? In 1958-59 VR compared Nohab diesel against Hr 12 in series on
trial runs and having the Nohab demo loco rented for abt 1 year but, maybe
again because of licenses, decided to continue Hr 12 orders until 1961, when
the next orders were Hr 13, which was a licence-built 2800 hp Alsthom loco,
a type which was never built anywhere else including France.)


Kimmo T. Lumirae,
Finland

[Jaap van Dorp]

I believe it was to be the ill fated 2600 of Dutch railroads only two or so
were built. what it would have looked like see first picture in the link
below:
Loading Image...&imgrefurl=http://www.nicospilt.com/boeken2.htm&h=200&w=150&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=HytJ985Qi4gSBM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=78&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNS%2Bdiesel%2Bhydraulische%2Blocomotief%2BBeelen%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26sa%3DN

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Gentlemen,
In 1955, when Finnish State Railways VR decided to place an order for
heavy line duty diesel locos, 2000 hp, obviously six-axle, there were some
suggestions from Europe, among others DEH 500 from Netherlands. Now, I
cannot find any information of this loco; was it ever built (even any
prototype?). What kind of loco it would have been? Anyone has contacts to
Werkspoor, for instance?
In 1957 Werkspoor built the swiss-dutch RAm TEEŽs with a six axles and
2x1000 hp main engines. Would that have been the DEH 500 with double cabs?
(The VR decided to place an order of 42 pcs. Hr 12 -type (now Dr12)
heavy diesels, built in Finland by Lokomo and Valmet, which, asked SLM and
BBC for assistance. That is why Dr 12 has some similarities to SLM
diesels, but is fitted with MAN diesel instead of Sulzer; would that has
been a question of producing licenses as almost all parts of these
magnificent loco were license-built in Finland including the MAN diesel
and BBC electric equipment? In 1958-59 VR compared Nohab diesel against Hr
12 in series on trial runs and having the Nohab demo loco rented for abt 1
year but, maybe again because of licenses, decided to continue Hr 12
orders until 1961, when the next orders were Hr 13, which was a
licence-built 2800 hp Alsthom loco, a type which was never built anywhere
else including France.)
Kimmo T. Lumirae,
Finland

[montcharmont.f]

Hi !
Hr 13 wich get the alsthom broken noise were sold to Marocco and Portugal
too . Actually , french locs will be withdrawn this year or next year except
for rebuilt engines .Actually , French locs are sold to Marocco and
Portugeses locs are sold to Argentina . I still remember the Dr 13 when i
took the night train from Joensu to Turku in 1999.
Bigfoot . Den Norsker Fransken togfarer

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Gentlemen,
In 1955, when Finnish State Railways VR decided to place an order for heavy
line duty diesel locos, 2000 hp, obviously six-axle, there were some
suggestions from Europe, among others DEH 500 from Netherlands. Now, I
cannot find any information of this loco; was it ever built (even any
prototype?). What kind of loco it would have been? Anyone has contacts to
Werkspoor, for instance?
In 1957 Werkspoor built the swiss-dutch RAm TEEŽs with a six axles and
2x1000 hp main engines. Would that have been the DEH 500 with double cabs?
(The VR decided to place an order of 42 pcs. Hr 12 -type (now Dr12)

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
diesels, built in Finland by Lokomo and Valmet, which, asked SLM and BBC for
assistance. That is why Dr 12 has some similarities to SLM diesels, but is
fitted with MAN diesel instead of Sulzer; would that has been a question of
producing licenses as almost all parts of these magnificent loco were
license-built in Finland including the MAN diesel and BBC electric
equipment? In 1958-59 VR compared Nohab diesel against Hr 12 in series on
trial runs and having the Nohab demo loco rented for abt 1 year but, maybe
again because of licenses, decided to continue Hr 12 orders until 1961, when
the next orders were Hr 13, which was a licence-built 2800 hp Alsthom loco,
a type which was never built anywhere else including France.)
Kimmo T. Lumirae,
Finland

[Kimmo T. Lumirae]

Hi,

as far as I know, the later Alsthom broken-nose locos were all fitted with
one 2400 hp diesel (AGO?Pielstick?) instead of two 1400 hp MGOŽs like in Hr
13 / Dr 13, so it is not the same type. Similar-looking narrow-gauge locos
were sold to Africa; were these that you ment? Some examples can be found in
stamps of Haute-Volta and some other countries.

But all these were narrow-gauge (were the Moroccoan narrow-gauge?) , IŽd
like to know more about the Alsthoms of Portugal, please.


Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
Hi !
Hr 13 wich get the alsthom broken noise were sold to Marocco and Portugal
too . Actually , french locs will be withdrawn this year or next year except
for rebuilt engines .Actually , French locs are sold to Marocco and
Portugeses locs are sold to Argentina . I still remember the Dr 13 when i
took the night train from Joensu to Turku in 1999.
Bigfoot . Den Norsker Fransken togfarer

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Gentlemen,
In 1955, when Finnish State Railways VR decided to place an order for

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
line duty diesel locos, 2000 hp, obviously six-axle, there were some
suggestions from Europe, among others DEH 500 from Netherlands. Now, I
cannot find any information of this loco; was it ever built (even any
prototype?). What kind of loco it would have been? Anyone has contacts to
Werkspoor, for instance?
In 1957 Werkspoor built the swiss-dutch RAm TEEŽs with a six axles and
2x1000 hp main engines. Would that have been the DEH 500 with double cabs?
(The VR decided to place an order of 42 pcs. Hr 12 -type (now Dr12)

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
diesels, built in Finland by Lokomo and Valmet, which, asked SLM and BBC

for

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
assistance. That is why Dr 12 has some similarities to SLM diesels, but is
fitted with MAN diesel instead of Sulzer; would that has been a question

of

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
producing licenses as almost all parts of these magnificent loco were
license-built in Finland including the MAN diesel and BBC electric
equipment? In 1958-59 VR compared Nohab diesel against Hr 12 in series on
trial runs and having the Nohab demo loco rented for abt 1 year but, maybe
again because of licenses, decided to continue Hr 12 orders until 1961,

when

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
the next orders were Hr 13, which was a licence-built 2800 hp Alsthom

loco,

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
a type which was never built anywhere else including France.)
Kimmo T. Lumirae,
Finland

[montcharmont.f]

Hi !
Locs i was talking about looked different that Dr 13 because built later .
But the body look get in the same way . Dr 13 just need a bit of low nose in
their face in order to seem like the other . I think that their equipement
was built as the 67 300 except the first motors MGO . I've got to check but
2400 hp motors might be 12 cylinders not Pielstick but probably Sulzer .
Marocco get in the seventies locs for standard gauge . Last year SNCF sold
old 72 000 to this country in order to get new engines and spare parts .
Portugal wich get in the same period locs for iberic gauge sold his locs to
Argentina wich is rebuilding entierly his railway .
Alsthom sold a lot of engines in Africa in the 70's and 80's when this aera
was still a french backyard , so looks and parts can be similars .
Bigfoot . Den Norsker Fransken togfarer

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Hi,
as far as I know, the later Alsthom broken-nose locos were all fitted with
one 2400 hp diesel (AGO?Pielstick?) instead of two 1400 hp MGOŽs like in Hr
13 / Dr 13, so it is not the same type. Similar-looking narrow-gauge locos
were sold to Africa; were these that you ment? Some examples can be found in
stamps of Haute-Volta and some other countries.
But all these were narrow-gauge (were the Moroccoan narrow-gauge?) , IŽd
like to know more about the Alsthoms of Portugal, please.
Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
Hi !
Hr 13 wich get the alsthom broken noise were sold to Marocco and Portugal
too . Actually , french locs will be withdrawn this year or next year except
for rebuilt engines .Actually , French locs are sold to Marocco and
Portugeses locs are sold to Argentina . I still remember the Dr 13 when i
took the night train from Joensu to Turku in 1999.
Bigfoot . Den Norsker Fransken togfarer

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Gentlemen,
In 1955, when Finnish State Railways VR decided to place an order for

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
line duty diesel locos, 2000 hp, obviously six-axle, there were some
suggestions from Europe, among others DEH 500 from Netherlands. Now, I
cannot find any information of this loco; was it ever built (even any
prototype?). What kind of loco it would have been? Anyone has contacts to
Werkspoor, for instance?
In 1957 Werkspoor built the swiss-dutch RAm TEEŽs with a six axles and
2x1000 hp main engines. Would that have been the DEH 500 with double cabs?
(The VR decided to place an order of 42 pcs. Hr 12 -type (now Dr12)

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
diesels, built in Finland by Lokomo and Valmet, which, asked SLM and BBC

for

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
assistance. That is why Dr 12 has some similarities to SLM diesels, but is
fitted with MAN diesel instead of Sulzer; would that has been a question

of

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
producing licenses as almost all parts of these magnificent loco were
license-built in Finland including the MAN diesel and BBC electric
equipment? In 1958-59 VR compared Nohab diesel against Hr 12 in series on
trial runs and having the Nohab demo loco rented for abt 1 year but, maybe
again because of licenses, decided to continue Hr 12 orders until 1961,

when

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
the next orders were Hr 13, which was a licence-built 2800 hp Alsthom

loco,

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
a type which was never built anywhere else including France.)
Kimmo T. Lumirae,
Finland

[Tim Fenton]

Post by montcharmont.f
Hi !
Locs i was talking about looked different that Dr 13 because built later .
But the body look get in the same way . Dr 13 just need a bit of low nose in
their face in order to seem like the other . I think that their equipement
was built as the 67 300 except the first motors MGO . I've got to check but
2400 hp motors might be 12 cylinders not Pielstick but probably Sulzer .
Marocco get in the seventies locs for standard gauge . Last year SNCF sold
old 72 000 to this country in order to get new engines and spare parts .
Portugal wich get in the same period locs for iberic gauge sold his locs to
Argentina wich is rebuilding entierly his railway .

AFAIK just four of the CP 1930 series locos have gone to Argentina - two
overhauled, and two not. The 1900 series are still all allocated to CP
Carga, although their availability is poor and two locos have been out of
use for some time. The 1930s have had less duties since the electrification
of the line between Lisboa and Faro.

[D7666]

There is one big difference between the SNCF, Morocco and Portugal
machines.

Quite apart from power ratings that some like to quite in kW down to
the last decimal point, they have Pielstick engines from the same
model, but

ONCF DF are 20cyl [V20]
SNCF CC72000 16cyl [V16]
CP 1900/1930 12 cyl [V12]

The ONCF machines are derated from maximum V20 output to meet local
environmental conditions.

--
Nick

[D7666]

Post by D7666
they have Pielstick engines from the same
model, but
ONCF DF are 20cyl [V20]
SNCF CC72000 16cyl [V16]
CP 1900/1930 12 cyl [V12]

Sorry was getitng confused with 72000 re-engined as 72100 with
Pielstick.

--
Nick

[Kimmo T. Lumirae]

Hello


Just checked my sources and found at least something about broken-nose
Alsthom diesels. The loco, made by Alsthom and looks little bit alike
finnish Dr 13, is CC 203 from Congo (-Ocean). It should have 1760 kW but I
cannot find any pic nor technical specifications from the web. This loco is
obviously of 1076 mm gauge.

There is a postage stamp from Haute-Volta, where is a pic of a similar loco
called CC 2400 ch. I could not find any information from the web.
http://www.lemarchedutimbre.com/fiche_timbre.php?id_timbre=868342

From http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=31524 can be found this:
Loading Image... , which is very
similar-looking but it is a BoŽBoŽBoŽ and probably from later date.

Any of these, or any other locos, AFAIK, were not fitted with two MGO V 16,
DC transmission and monomoteur bogies, like Dr 13 is. So it is obvious that
Dr 13 is a unique type. But, any further information would be valuable.


Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
Hi !
Locs i was talking about looked different that Dr 13 because built later .
But the body look get in the same way . Dr 13 just need a bit of low nose in
their face in order to seem like the other . I think that their equipement
was built as the 67 300 except the first motors MGO . I've got to check but
2400 hp motors might be 12 cylinders not Pielstick but probably Sulzer .
Marocco get in the seventies locs for standard gauge . Last year SNCF sold
old 72 000 to this country in order to get new engines and spare parts .
Portugal wich get in the same period locs for iberic gauge sold his locs to
Argentina wich is rebuilding entierly his railway .
Alsthom sold a lot of engines in Africa in the 70's and 80's when this aera
was still a french backyard , so looks and parts can be similars .
Bigfoot . Den Norsker Fransken togfarer

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Hi,
as far as I know, the later Alsthom broken-nose locos were all fitted with
one 2400 hp diesel (AGO?Pielstick?) instead of two 1400 hp MGOŽs like in

Hr

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
13 / Dr 13, so it is not the same type. Similar-looking narrow-gauge locos
were sold to Africa; were these that you ment? Some examples can be found

in

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
stamps of Haute-Volta and some other countries.
But all these were narrow-gauge (were the Moroccoan narrow-gauge?) , IŽd
like to know more about the Alsthoms of Portugal, please.
Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
Hi !
Hr 13 wich get the alsthom broken noise were sold to Marocco and

Portugal

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
too . Actually , french locs will be withdrawn this year or next year except
for rebuilt engines .Actually , French locs are sold to Marocco and
Portugeses locs are sold to Argentina . I still remember the Dr 13 when

i

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
took the night train from Joensu to Turku in 1999.
Bigfoot . Den Norsker Fransken togfarer

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Gentlemen,
In 1955, when Finnish State Railways VR decided to place an order for

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
line duty diesel locos, 2000 hp, obviously six-axle, there were some
suggestions from Europe, among others DEH 500 from Netherlands. Now, I
cannot find any information of this loco; was it ever built (even any
prototype?). What kind of loco it would have been? Anyone has contacts

to

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
Werkspoor, for instance?
In 1957 Werkspoor built the swiss-dutch RAm TEEŽs with a six axles and
2x1000 hp main engines. Would that have been the DEH 500 with double cabs?
(The VR decided to place an order of 42 pcs. Hr 12 -type (now Dr12)

heavy

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
diesels, built in Finland by Lokomo and Valmet, which, asked SLM and

BBC

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
for

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
assistance. That is why Dr 12 has some similarities to SLM diesels,
but
is
fitted with MAN diesel instead of Sulzer; would that has been a

question

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f
of

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
producing licenses as almost all parts of these magnificent loco were
license-built in Finland including the MAN diesel and BBC electric
equipment? In 1958-59 VR compared Nohab diesel against Hr 12 in series

on

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae

Post by montcharmont.f

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
trial runs and having the Nohab demo loco rented for abt 1 year but, maybe
again because of licenses, decided to continue Hr 12 orders until 1961,

when

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
the next orders were Hr 13, which was a licence-built 2800 hp Alsthom

loco,

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
a type which was never built anywhere else including France.)
Kimmo T. Lumirae,
Finland

[D7666]

Post by Kimmo T. Lumirae
called CC 2400 ch.

I have some data ... somewhere.

I *think* they are 8axle BoBoBoBo but I need to find my files.

--
Nick

[D7666]

Post by D7666
I have some data ... somewhere.
I *think* they are 8axle BoBoBoBo but I need to find my files.

BBBB - they were diesel electric but monomotor bogies

Here is some of it, in very shorthand form:

CEM / MTE built 24 in total

10 for CFCO, (French) Congo
13 for RNCFC, Cameroun
1 for RNCFM, Malagasy / Madagascar

CO-Chemin de Fer Congo-Océan (CFCO) = Congo-Ocean Railway = Pointe-
Noire / Brazzaville and Pointe-Noire in Congo

CFCO BBBB
1067 mm gauge OR 1000 mm gauige ? <-------------- problem here is
different gen sources
specified to haul 1900 tonne on 16 mm/m gradient
80 km/h maximum
16.2 tonne axle load maximum
50 m minimum curve
CAFL built the monomotor bogies
CEM built loco
SACM built engine
~50000 kgf maximum tractive effort
~35000 kgf 21 km/h continuous TE
125 tonnes empty weight
~130 tonnes in working order
1700 kW electric dynamic brake
engine set at 3300 metric hp for CFCO
engine = AGO ESHR SACM
twin winding (i.e x2) 1650 A 636 V alternator
traction motor 830A 630V 390 rpm
... 615 Amp 845 volt 510 rpm at 80 km/h
32 per cent field eakening
EDB 425 kW per motor separte resistor
excited by DC from main alternator
19304 mm long
19800 over cpuplers



--
Nick

[Kimmo T. Lumirae]

Post by D7666
I have some data ... somewhere.
I *think* they are 8axle BoBoBoBo but I need to find my files.

BBBB - they were diesel electric but monomotor bogies


--
Nick


That sure sounds interresting. Any pic of these locos? Anywhere?


Kimmo T. Lumirae

[Ulf Kutzner]

Post by D7666

Post by D7666
I have some data ... somewhere.
I *think* they are 8axle BoBoBoBo but I need to find my files.

BBBB - they were diesel electric but monomotor bogies
CEM / MTE built 24 in total
10 for CFCO, (French) Congo
13 for RNCFC, Cameroun
1 for RNCFM, Malagasy / Madagascar
CO-Chemin de Fer Congo-Océan (CFCO) = Congo-Ocean Railway = Pointe-
Noire / Brazzaville and Pointe-Noire in Congo
CFCO BBBB
1067 mm gauge OR 1000 mm gauige ? <-------------- problem here is
different gen sources
specified to haul 1900 tonne on 16 mm/m gradient
80 km/h maximum
16.2 tonne axle load maximum
50 m minimum curve
CAFL built the monomotor bogies
CEM built loco
SACM built engine
~50000 kgf maximum tractive effort
~35000 kgf 21 km/h continuous TE
125 tonnes empty weight
~130 tonnes in working order
1700 kW electric dynamic brake
engine set at 3300 metric hp for CFCO
engine = AGO ESHR SACM
twin winding (i.e x2) 1650 A 636 V alternator
traction motor 830A 630V 390 rpm
... 615 Amp 845 volt 510 rpm at 80 km/h
32 per cent field eakening
EDB 425 kW per motor separte resistor
excited by DC from main alternator
19304 mm long
19800 over cpuplers

1067 mm.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_Congo-Oc%C3%A9an
The line is now connected to the RSA network.

Regards, ULF