Slovenia to Italy...

[Phil Richards]

... will be the next pair of adjoining EU countries to loose their last
passenger train. From 11 December the overnight Budapest via Zagreb &
Ljubljana to Venezia overnight train is withdrawn.

So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

[Tadej Brezina]

Post by Phil Richards
... will be the next pair of adjoining EU countries to loose their last
passenger train. From 11 December the overnight Budapest via Zagreb &
Ljubljana to Venezia overnight train is withdrawn.

Will it be cancelled completely or just cropped?

Post by Phil Richards
So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

T+

[Phil Richards]

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
... will be the next pair of adjoining EU countries to loose their last
passenger train. From 11 December the overnight Budapest via Zagreb &
Ljubljana to Venezia overnight train is withdrawn.

Will it be cancelled completely or just cropped?

Cancelled completely. See:

<http://www.seat61.com/news.htm>

& scroll down to "Summary of changes to European train services from 11
December..."

Of course you'll still be able to travel Budapest Zagreb-Ljubljana, but
not from Ljubljana to Italy :-(

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES,

Two major crossings with the one on the Mediterranean side becoming
increasingly more important now connected by high speed rail.

ES - PT ist technically also

Connections have never been fantastic, but you still have direct trains
from the French border & Madrid to Lisboa. Vigo to Porto was under risk
of closure but I think has been reprieved.

[TimB]

Post by Phil Richards

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
... will be the next pair of adjoining EU countries to loose their last
passenger train. From 11 December the overnight Budapest via Zagreb &
Ljubljana to Venezia overnight train is withdrawn.

Will it be cancelled completely or just cropped?

<http://www.seat61.com/news.htm>
& scroll down to "Summary of changes to European train services from 11
December..."
Of course you'll still be able to travel Budapest Zagreb-Ljubljana, but
not from Ljubljana to Italy :-(

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES,

Two major crossings with the one on the Mediterranean side becoming
increasingly more important now connected by high speed rail.
ES - PT ist technically also
Connections have never been fantastic, but you still have direct trains
from the French border & Madrid to Lisboa. Vigo to Porto was under risk
of closure but I think has been reprieved.
--
Phil Richards
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/philstephenrichards>

But it is bloody hard to book the train from the French border to
Lisbon online. I gave up and went via Madrid - but of course there it
was, with no passengers boarding. Go figure!
Tim

[Tadej Brezina]

Post by Phil Richards

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
... will be the next pair of adjoining EU countries to loose their last
passenger train. From 11 December the overnight Budapest via Zagreb &
Ljubljana to Venezia overnight train is withdrawn.

Will it be cancelled completely or just cropped?

<http://www.seat61.com/news.htm>
& scroll down to "Summary of changes to European train services from 11
December..."
Of course you'll still be able to travel Budapest Zagreb-Ljubljana, but
not from Ljubljana to Italy :-(

Yeah let those Italians hide behind the Alpine arch from the rest of
Europe. ;-)

The news section says something else:
That the Dacia Express' section Vienna - Budapest will be cancelled.
Strangelly the OeBB timetable lists this train from Vienna, even
upgraded to EuroNight.

regards
T+

[Oliver Schnell]

Post by Tadej Brezina
That the Dacia Express' section Vienna - Budapest will be cancelled.
Strangelly the OeBB timetable lists this train from Vienna, even
upgraded to EuroNight.

seat61 in this case may be not have the latest information that
the Dacia saisonally runs its original route Vienna - Bucharest
(up to mid of January and from Mid of June to End of September)
while on other dates it runs with different schedule, numbering
and classification (D instead of EN) on the Budapest - Bucharest
stretch only.


Oliver Schnell

[Lüko Willms]

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

Wrong. There are regular passenger trains over the French - Spanish
border, both night sleeper trains with gauge change at the border
stations and the three daily TGV from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant (where
one can catch a connecting train to Barcelona-Sants). There might even
be more. After the opening of the UIC-gauge line between Barcelona and
Figures (promised for 2012), there will probably more trains over the
border.

There are also direct trains between Lisbon and at least Madrid.


Cheers,
L.W.

[iMark]

Post by Lüko Willms
There are also direct trains between Lisbon and at least Madrid.

Not exactly thriving though. One pair between Lisbon and Madrid
(Lusitania TrenHotel) and one pair between Lisbon and Irun/Hendaye
(SudExpress). Two pairs between Oporto and Vigo.

It's very exciting stuff.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

Wrong. There are regular passenger trains over the French - Spanish
border, both night sleeper trains with gauge change at the border
stations and the three daily TGV from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant (where
one can catch a connecting train to Barcelona-Sants). There might even
be more. After the opening of the UIC-gauge line between Barcelona and
Figures (promised for 2012), there will probably more trains over the
border.

Being pedantic, the Spanish metre gauge to Hendaye also just crosses the
French border...

Post by Lüko Willms
There are also direct trains between Lisbon and at least Madrid.

Though only at night, it seemed when I tried to find one earlier in the
year.

AFAIK Sweden - Finland has no passenger service, though admittedly their
land border is a bit out of the way.

[Erwan David]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

Wrong. There are regular passenger trains over the French - Spanish
border, both night sleeper trains with gauge change at the border
stations and the three daily TGV from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant (where
one can catch a connecting train to Barcelona-Sants). There might even
be more. After the opening of the UIC-gauge line between Barcelona and
Figures (promised for 2012), there will probably more trains over the
border.

Being pedantic, the Spanish metre gauge to Hendaye also just crosses
the French border...

Then you must count spanish trains to Latour de Carol or Cerbere...

[Phil Richards]

Post by Erwan David

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

Wrong. There are regular passenger trains over the French - Spanish
border, both night sleeper trains with gauge change at the border
stations and the three daily TGV from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant (where
one can catch a connecting train to Barcelona-Sants). There might even
be more. After the opening of the UIC-gauge line between Barcelona and
Figures (promised for 2012), there will probably more trains over the
border.

Being pedantic, the Spanish metre gauge to Hendaye also just crosses
the French border...

Then you must count spanish trains to Latour de Carol or Cerbere...

and Canfranc until 1970.

[Erwan David]

Post by Phil Richards

Post by Erwan David

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

Wrong. There are regular passenger trains over the French - Spanish
border, both night sleeper trains with gauge change at the border
stations and the three daily TGV from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant (where
one can catch a connecting train to Barcelona-Sants). There might even
be more. After the opening of the UIC-gauge line between Barcelona and
Figures (promised for 2012), there will probably more trains over the
border.

Being pedantic, the Spanish metre gauge to Hendaye also just crosses
the French border...

Then you must count spanish trains to Latour de Carol or Cerbere...

and Canfranc until 1970.

French trains to Canfranc, yes. And french trains to Irun and Port-Bou.
I do not know when french trains stopped going to PuigCerda.

[amogles]

Post by Erwan David
Then you must count spanish trains to Latour de Carol or Cerbere...

and indeed the SNCF trains into Port Bou and Irun.

[Phil Richards]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

French border...

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Lüko Willms
There are also direct trains between Lisbon and at least Madrid.

Though only at night, it seemed when I tried to find one earlier in the
year.

The day train got discontinued many years back. Quite slow IIRC and with
very few major towns en-route probably lost out to air travel. Lends
itself very much to an overnight route IMO.

Maybe a high speed link will revive this route...

Post by Arthur Figgis
AFAIK Sweden - Finland has no passenger service, though admittedly their
land border is a bit out of the way.

It used to many years back with a change of trains at the border due to
track gauge changes. AFAIK there is a bus connection which largely fills
in the gap where the trains used to go.


The countries which really do lack any sort of decent cross-border links
are the three Baltic States - Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Seat 61
does offer to provide the rail "options" for those that like the
challenge of what resembles a public transport assault course. Easiest
way overland between the capital cities seems to be by bus.

[Oliver Schnell]

Post by Phil Richards
The countries which really do lack any sort of decent cross-border links
are the three Baltic States - Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Seat 61
does offer to provide the rail "options" for those that like the
challenge of what resembles a public transport assault course. Easiest
way overland between the capital cities seems to be by bus.

Using the ferries from Travemünde to Ventspils and Liepaja or Kiel to
Klaipeda might be an alternative as the Travemünde and Kiel ports are
accessible within walking distance from adjacent railway stations.


Oliver Schnell

[Oliver Schnell]

Post by Oliver Schnell

Post by Phil Richards
The countries which really do lack any sort of decent cross-border links
are the three Baltic States - Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Seat 61
does offer to provide the rail "options" for those that like the
challenge of what resembles a public transport assault course. Easiest
way overland between the capital cities seems to be by bus.

Sorry I did not realise " between the capital cities"; the following
focuses not on that.

Post by Oliver Schnell
Using the ferries from Travemünde to Ventspils and Liepaja or Kiel to
Klaipeda might be an alternative as the Travemünde and Kiel ports are
accessible within walking distance from adjacent railway stations.

Oliver Schnell

[Tadej Brezina]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina

Post by Phil Richards
how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

I'd say for their importance FR - ES, ES - PT ist technically also
almost non existent.

Wrong. There are regular passenger trains over the French - Spanish
border, both night sleeper trains with gauge change at the border
stations and the three daily TGV from Paris to Figueres-Vilafant (where
one can catch a connecting train to Barcelona-Sants). There might even
be more. After the opening of the UIC-gauge line between Barcelona and
Figures (promised for 2012), there will probably more trains over the
border.
There are also direct trains between Lisbon and at least Madrid.
Cheers,
L.W.

Though it is true, that the new metre gauge line brought some new
traffic and hopefully will bring more connections in the future, I
deliberately wrote "technically almost non existent". Because in the
recent history there was hardly any cross-border personal transport.
As far as I know by heart, without checking past or present timetables:

Hendaye/Irun:
1 night train Paris - Madrid & v.v.
Cerbere/Port Bou:
1 night train Paris - Barcelona & v.v.
1 night train Zurich - Barcelona & v.v.
1 night train Milano - Barcelona & v.v.
1 day train Montpellier - Barcelona/Valencia/... & v.v.
Valencia de Alcantara/Beira:
1 night train Madrid - Lisboa & v.v.
Villar Formoso:
1 night train Irun - Lisboa & v.v.

Well, although you are right, that this doesn't equal zero trains, it's
still just a blip if you consider that PT, ES and FR have together a
population of about 120 Mio.

regards
T+

[Lüko Willms]

Post by Tadej Brezina
Though it is true, that the new metre gauge line

UIC-gauge line...

Post by Tadej Brezina
brought some new
traffic and hopefully will bring more connections in the future, I
deliberately wrote "technically almost non existent". Because in the
recent history there was hardly any cross-border personal transport.

Well, there are some more cross-border passenger train connections,
but with changes at the border stations instead of changing the gauge in
the border station.

Here are those from Perpignan to Figueres:

+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+

Post by Tadej Brezina
| Station | Arr. | Dep. | Train No | Comments |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Perpignan | | 08:55 | 463 |RP GP TM VW |
| Figueres | 10:12 | | | |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Duration: 1:17; |
| runs not every day, 7. until 9. Dec 2011 |
| Fares not available |
| RP: Subject to compulsory reservation |
| GP: Global price |
| TM: Partially, snacks and beverages available |
| VW: Video coach available |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Perpignan | | 12:15 | RE 86989 | |
| Port Bou | 13:03 | 13:26 | IR 15090 |K2 GP RO 97 |
| Figueres | 13:46 | | | |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Duration: 1:31; |
| runs not every day, 7. until 9. Dec 2011 |
| Fares not available |
| K2: 2nd class only |
| GP: Global price |
| RO: space for wheelchairs |
| 97: Compartment for disabled travellers |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Perpignan | | 13:46 | RE 86991 | |
| Port Bou | 14:33 | 15:26 | IR 15072 |K2 GP RO 97 |
| Figueres | 15:46 | | | |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Duration: 2:00; |
| runs not every day, 7., 9. Dec 2011 |
| Fares not available |
| K2: 2nd class only |
| GP: Global price |
| RO: space for wheelchairs |
| 97: Compartment for disabled travellers |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Perpignan | | 15:35 | RE 86993 | |
| Port Bou | 16:22 | 17:56 | IR 15918 |K2 GP RO 97 |
| Figueres | 18:16 | | | |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Duration: 2:41; |
| runs not every day, 7. Dec 2011 |
| Fares not available |
| Prolonged stop |
| K2: 2nd class only |
| GP: Global price |
| RO: space for wheelchairs |
| 97: Compartment for disabled travellers |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Perpignan | | 17:49 | RE 86995 | |
| Port Bou | 18:36 | 19:31 | R 15850 |K2 GP |
| Figueres | 19:55 | | | |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Duration: 2:06; |
| runs not every day, 7., 9. Dec 2011 |
| Fares not available |
| K2: 2nd class only |
| GP: Global price |
+--------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+

The first is a Talgo from Montpellier to Cartagena with gauge change
at Port Bou. The passengers of the others have to change trains at the
border.

I left out the connections using a TGV to Figueres-Vilafant.



Cheeers,
L.W.

[Tadej Brezina]

Post by Lüko Willms

Post by Tadej Brezina
Though it is true, that the new metre gauge line

UIC-gauge line...

Yes of course, typo from my side ;-)
T+

[amogles]

Post by Phil Richards
So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

Depends how you define a country and a border.

There is no rail link crossing from Spain into Gibraltar.
There is a rail link to the Vatican but it doesn't see regular use.
There is no rail link into Andorra.
I believe there is no rail link between the two Cypruses.
There is no rail link between Norway and Finland, or between Norway
and Russia although both have common borders.

[Phil Richards]

Post by amogles

Post by Phil Richards
So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

Depends how you define a country and a border.
There is no rail link crossing from Spain into Gibraltar.
There is a rail link to the Vatican but it doesn't see regular use.
There is no rail link into Andorra.
I believe there is no rail link between the two Cypruses.
There is no rail link between Norway and Finland, or between Norway
and Russia although both have common borders.

As most of those examples you quote have never existed they aren't
really answers to the question I originally asked! ;-)

I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international
trains. Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.

Cross border routes within the Baltic States are a bit "iffy" and not
exactly principle ones IMO.

[Oliver Schnell]

Post by Phil Richards
I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international
trains. Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.

There have been quite a number like that. The first I can remember
since when I showed interest in railways was Nijmwegen - Kranenburg,
once a route for international trains like Austria-Express
Amsterdam - Klagenfurt in 1981. Another one I remember is
Trier - Apach (- Metz) used by the Express train Koblenz - Paris.
Or Warnemünde - Gedsewr used by Berlin - Copenhagen trains,
Or Delemont - Delle - Belfort once used by trains Bern - Belfort,
but to be reopnend soon.
Or (Salamanca-) Fregenada - Barca d'Alva (-Porto), IIRC used by the
Irun - Porto portion of the SUD-Express.


Oliver Schnell

[Phil Richards]

Post by Oliver Schnell

Post by Phil Richards
I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international
trains. Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.

There have been quite a number like that. The first I can remember
since when I showed interest in railways was Nijmwegen - Kranenburg,
once a route for international trains like Austria-Express
Amsterdam - Klagenfurt in 1981. Another one I remember is
Trier - Apach (- Metz) used by the Express train Koblenz - Paris.
Or Warnemünde - Gedsewr used by Berlin - Copenhagen trains,
Or Delemont - Delle - Belfort once used by trains Bern - Belfort,
but to be reopnend soon.
Or (Salamanca-) Fregenada - Barca d'Alva (-Porto), IIRC used by the
Irun - Porto portion of the SUD-Express.

Oh yes I know about the dozens of border crossings that have closed. In
all the above you've listed there are still links in operation between
the pairs of countries (DE-FR, DE-DK, CH-FR etc.)

What I was after were pairs of adjoining countries that had a rail
passenger crossing over the border, but no longer have any.

May be because the initial text of this thread has been snipped off as
it has grown longer.......

[Oliver Schnell]

Post by Phil Richards
What I was after were pairs of adjoining countries that had a rail
passenger crossing over the border, but no longer have any.

So you may also look at countries which have changed their borders
or have been disappeared ...

Post by Phil Richards
May be because the initial text of this thread has been snipped off as
it has grown longer.......

Indeed.


Oliver Schnell

[Hans-Joachim Zierke]

Post by Phil Richards
I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international
trains. Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.

Warnemünde - Gedser
Oloron-Sainte-Marie - Canfranc
Borken - Winterswijk
Kleve - Nijmegen
Roermond - Dalheim



Hans-Joachim

[amogles]

Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Warnemünde - Gedser
Oloron-Sainte-Marie - Canfranc
Borken - Winterswijk
Kleve - Nijmegen
Roermond - Dalheim
Hans-Joachim

Has Canfranc officially closed? My understanding was that technically
the line still existed but that they just haven't yet agreed who is
going to pay to fix it.

[Martin Theodor Ludwig]

Post by amogles
Has Canfranc officially closed? My understanding was that technically
the line still existed but that they just haven't yet agreed who is
going to pay to fix it.

The tunnel has been refurbished as emergency access to the new parallel
road tunnel. No clue if this would be an obstacle for rail traffic ...

Regards,
Martin

[Johannes Picht]

Hello!

Post by amogles

Post by Hans-Joachim Zierke
Warnemünde - Gedser
Oloron-Sainte-Marie - Canfranc
Borken - Winterswijk
Kleve - Nijmegen
Roermond - Dalheim
Hans-Joachim

Has Canfranc officially closed? My understanding was that technically
the line still existed but that they just haven't yet agreed who is
going to pay to fix it.

For connecting passengers, the buses still count as rail replacement
buses:
http://telechargement.ter-sncf.com/Images/Aquitaine/Tridion/63_Pau_OLoron_Ste_Marie_Canfranc_05_12_11__tcm-11-67796.pdf

Cheers,

Johannes.

[Graeme Wall]

Post by Phil Richards

Post by amogles

Post by Phil Richards
So with Greece still cut off from its three railway next door
neighbours, how many more pairs of countries European no longer have a
passenger railway link over the border?

Depends how you define a country and a border.
There is no rail link crossing from Spain into Gibraltar.
There is a rail link to the Vatican but it doesn't see regular use.
There is no rail link into Andorra.
I believe there is no rail link between the two Cypruses.
There is no rail link between Norway and Finland, or between Norway
and Russia although both have common borders.

As most of those examples you quote have never existed they aren't
really answers to the question I originally asked! ;-)
I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international
trains. Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.
Cross border routes within the Baltic States are a bit "iffy" and not
exactly principle ones IMO.

Do train ferry routes count?

[amogles]

Post by Phil Richards
I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international
trains. Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.

Principle cross-border link is a bit iffy as a definition too though.

Take for example the French - German border that has moved since the
time the first railways were built.
So some lines that were once inside Germany are now cross-border
lines, and some lines that were once cross-border are now entirely
within France.

More recently we have started seeing TGV trains go to Freiburg using
the Mulhouse - Müllheim line. That line never carried long-distance
passenger trains (other than military ones) and in fact for many
decades had no passenger trains at all, so you could say it has now
become a principle cross-border link which it was never before.

Or look at some of the consequences of that. Boncort - Delle was once
the main crossing from France into Switzerland. It would have been
faster to go through Basel - Mulhouse but at the time Mulhouse/
Mühlhausen was German and to avoid going through a third country they
routed many trains through Delle instead. Of course with Mulhouse
being part of France today that reason no longer exists and you can
say that the Delle axis has not really closed but has shifted to a
different place.

The same may well happen in Spain as the high speed line makes it
faster to go from Madrid to Paris via Figueres/Perpignan rather than
via Hendaye/Irun as it was in the past. So if that line gets less
trains in future, it won't eb ebcause that traffic is drying up but
because it has found a new route.

[Oliver Schnell]

Post by amogles
More recently we have started seeing TGV trains go to Freiburg using
the Mulhouse - Müllheim line. That line never carried long-distance
passenger trains (other than military ones)

One may add: special trains (to Lourdes)

Oliver Schnell

[Lüko Willms]

Post by amogles
More recently we have started seeing TGV trains go to Freiburg using
the Mulhouse - Müllheim line.

Not yet, they are announced for a later day.

(I checked for direct FR - Paris trains).

Cheers,
L.W.

[EE507]

Post by amogles
More recently we have started seeing TGV trains go to Freiburg using
the Mulhouse - Müllheim line.

   Not yet, they are announced for a later day.

Not even any Sunday local trains at the moment: these begin on 1 July
2012. Regular traffic begins in the December 2012 timetable:
http://www.muellheim-mulhouse.eu/cms/Regioverbund/Muellheim-Mulhouse/navigation/Aktuelles/1,300428,11219.html

[amogles]

Post by EE507
Not even any Sunday local trains at the moment: these begin on 1 July
2012. Regular traffic begins in the December 2012 timetable:http://www.muellheim-mulhouse.eu/cms/Regioverbund/Muellheim-Mulhouse/...

okay, I was being a bit overoptimistic then.

[U***@web.de]

Post by amogles
The same may well happen in Spain as the high speed line makes it
faster to go from Madrid to Paris via Figueres/Perpignan rather than
via Hendaye/Irun as it was in the past.

Even worse: There are *no* more SNCF passenger trains to
Irún, and just two RENFE Long-distance trains per day
to Hendaye as from december 2017.

By the way, you do not want to go from Bordeaux to
places between San Sebastián/Donostia and Valladolid
via Figueres.

Regards, ULF

[tim...]

Post by U***@web.de

Post by amogles
The same may well happen in Spain as the high speed line makes it
faster to go from Madrid to Paris via Figueres/Perpignan rather than
via Hendaye/Irun as it was in the past.

Even worse: There are *no* more SNCF passenger trains to
Irún,

why does it matter who runs them, if there are actually trains running?

Post by U***@web.de
and just two RENFE Long-distance trains per day
to Hendaye as from december 2017.

DB shows 6

tim

[U***@web.de]

Good evening,

Post by tim...

Post by U***@web.de

Post by amogles
The same may well happen in Spain as the high speed line makes it
faster to go from Madrid to Paris via Figueres/Perpignan rather than
via Hendaye/Irun as it was in the past.

Even worse: There are *no* more SNCF passenger trains to
Irún,

why does it matter who runs them, if there are actually trains running?

There are *no* passenger trains from Hendaye to Irún
on the 1435/1676 mm connection.

Post by tim...

Post by U***@web.de
and just two RENFE Long-distance trains per day
to Hendaye as from december 2017.

DB shows 6

This way?

+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Bahnhof | An | Ab | Zug Nr. | Bemerkungen |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Irun | | 21:17 | IC 280 |RP GP 1. |
| Hendaye | 21:22 | | | |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Fahrzeit: 0:05; |
| fährt nicht täglich, 13. Mär bis 28. Mai 2018 |
| Preisauskunft nicht möglich |
| RP: Reservierungspflicht |
| GP: Globalpreis |
| 1.: Hendaye |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Irun | | 11:23 | HOT 310 |RP GP SW 1. |
| Hendaye | 11:33 | | | |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Fahrzeit: 0:10; |
| fährt nicht täglich, 13. Mär bis 29. Mai 2018 |
| Preisauskunft nicht möglich |
| RP: Reservierungspflicht |
| GP: Globalpreis |
| SW: Schlafwagen |
| 1.: Hendaye |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Irun | | 21:17 | IC 280 |RP GP 1. |
| Hendaye | 21:22 | | | |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Fahrzeit: 0:05; |
| fährt nicht täglich, 13. Mär bis 28. Mai 2018 |
| Preisauskunft nicht möglich |
| RP: Reservierungspflicht |
| GP: Globalpreis |
| 1.: Hendaye |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Irun | | 11:23 | HOT 310 |RP GP SW 1. |
| Hendaye | 11:33 | | | |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Fahrzeit: 0:10; |
| fährt nicht täglich, 13. Mär bis 29. Mai 2018 |
| Preisauskunft nicht möglich |
| RP: Reservierungspflicht |
| GP: Globalpreis |
| SW: Schlafwagen |
| 1.: Hendaye |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Irun | | 21:17 | IC 280 |RP GP 1. |
| Hendaye | 21:22 | | | |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Fahrzeit: 0:05; |
| fährt nicht täglich, 13. Mär bis 28. Mai 2018 |
| Preisauskunft nicht möglich |
| RP: Reservierungspflicht |
| GP: Globalpreis |
| 1.: Hendaye |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Irun | | 11:23 | HOT 310 |RP GP SW 1. |
| Hendaye | 11:33 | | | |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+
| Fahrzeit: 0:10; |
| fährt nicht täglich, 13. Mär bis 29. Mai 2018 |
| Preisauskunft nicht möglich |
| RP: Reservierungspflicht |
| GP: Globalpreis |
| SW: Schlafwagen |
| 1.: Hendaye |
+-------------------------+--------+--------+----------+----------------+

Regards, ULF

[tim...]

Post by U***@web.de
Good evening,

Post by tim...

Post by U***@web.de

Post by amogles
The same may well happen in Spain as the high speed line makes it
faster to go from Madrid to Paris via Figueres/Perpignan rather than
via Hendaye/Irun as it was in the past.

Even worse: There are *no* more SNCF passenger trains to
Irún,

why does it matter who runs them, if there are actually trains running?

There are *no* passenger trains from Hendaye to Irún
on the 1435/1676 mm connection.

odd

there are trains in the other direction, albeit very infrequently

[Theo]

Post by tim...

Post by U***@web.de
There are *no* passenger trains from Hendaye to Irún
on the 1435/1676 mm connection.

odd
there are trains in the other direction, albeit very infrequently

My understanding is that there was an arrangement where southbound SNCF
trains would cross the border to terminate at Irun, and northbound RENFE
trains would cross the border to terminate at Hendaye. It seems SNCF have
unilaterally terminated their side of this, so that their trains terminate
at Hendaye, meaning it's not possible to change from SNCF to RENFE in a
southbound direction.

There is at least Euskotren as another way to get across the border, but
it doesn't exactly make it easy...

Theo

[U***@web.de]

Post by Theo
My understanding is that there was an arrangement where southbound SNCF
trains would cross the border to terminate at Irun, and northbound RENFE
trains would cross the border to terminate at Hendaye.

Including landside documents & customs checks with
immigration. Well, both of them have been officially
abolished but not the treaty.

There was a modification with SNCF trains no longer running
to Puigcerdà on the Ax - Barcelona line.

For a couple of months, Train to Lisbon started from
Hendaye instead of Irún.

Post by Theo
It seems SNCF have
unilaterally terminated their side of this, so that their trains terminate
at Hendaye, meaning it's not possible to change from SNCF to RENFE in a
southbound direction.

The Agreement says SNCF can, not must, send their trains to
Irún. Looks like domestic TGV Duplex trainsets (different from
TGV Euroduplex operating into Catalunya) have
no technical clearance for Irún.

Regards, ULF

[U***@web.de]

Post by Theo

Post by tim...

Post by U***@web.de
There are *no* passenger trains from Hendaye to Irún
on the 1435/1676 mm connection.

odd
there are trains in the other direction, albeit very infrequently

My understanding is that there was an arrangement where southbound SNCF
trains would cross the border to terminate at Irun, and northbound RENFE
trains would cross the border to terminate at Hendaye. It seems SNCF have
unilaterally terminated their side of this, so that their trains terminate
at Hendaye, meaning it's not possible to change from SNCF to RENFE in a
southbound direction.
There is at least Euskotren as another way to get across the border, but
it doesn't exactly make it easy...

Things became better with another exception having started a few days ago: https://www.cp.pt/passageiros/pt/consultar-horarios/avisos/sud-expresso

Regards, ULF

[William JONES]

Phil Richards a couché sur son écran :
Hello,
[...]

Post by Phil Richards
I was more concerned of principle cross-border links that have now been
closed. Links that for example carried long distance, international trains.
Greece and Slovenia/Italy were the only ones that spring to mind.

Belgium used to have 39 cross-border lines - mostly local - and now
there are only 14 left.