Discussion:
Specialised newsgroup for russian railways?
(too old to reply)
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 12:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Does someone know the name for the russian railways newsgroup, even if it is
in russian only? I would like to discuss - or at least address - the ongoing
gauge difference issue between Russia/ex-Soviet Union and neighbouring
countries.

This appears to be a taboo topic in Russia so requires to be addressed from
outside to start things moving. Russia is in the process of renewing its
railways, so this would be the right moment not to continue cementing this
historic error, but use modern sleepers that would permit a later conversion
when the right moment is there.

It could also be asked if Russia shouldn't permit a standard-gauge link from
Estonia over St Petersburg to Finland if it wishes to remain connected in
broad gauge to Kaliningrad. I know that Estonia and Finland are broad-gauge
countries, but they are only because of their russian past, so need not
remain that way.
valtsu
2008-09-16 14:44:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Does someone know the name for the russian railways newsgroup, even if it is
in russian only? I would like to discuss - or at least address - the ongoing
gauge difference issue between Russia/ex-Soviet Union and neighbouring
countries.
No newsgroup, but two active mailing lists. The more active one is
called "1520mm" and is in Russian, and the less active one is "5feet" in
English. To join them visit: http://www.parovoz.com/1520mm/index-e.html
I've subscribed to both for more than a decade now.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
This appears to be a taboo topic in Russia so requires to be addressed from
outside to start things moving. Russia is in the process of renewing its
railways, so this would be the right moment not to continue cementing this
historic error, but use modern sleepers that would permit a later conversion
when the right moment is there.
Hardly a taboo. You are welcome to adress your views there using the
language of the list. English in the Russian language list is concidered
as spam, so please bear that in mind.

For starters you'll get angry feed-back if talk about "correcting a
historic error" as what refers to different gauges. But do try your luck!
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
It could also be asked if Russia shouldn't permit a standard-gauge link from
Estonia over St Petersburg to Finland if it wishes to remain connected in
broad gauge to Kaliningrad. I know that Estonia and Finland are broad-gauge
countries, but they are only because of their russian past, so need not
remain that way.
As a Finn in Helsinki I don't see any need at all for a standard-gauge
link from Helsinki via St Petersburg to Tallinn. That would be a
distance of nearly 800 km. Right noe Finnish and Estonian authorities
have launched plans to expolre the feasebility of a direct rail tunnel
between these two cities, which are only 80 km apart. That would make
commuting between Helsinki and Tallinn just as easy as commuting between
Copenhagen and Malmö is today over the Öresund bridge.

http://www.balticbusinessnews.com/Default2.aspx?ArticleID=2a7f79e3-980e-4ef1-99ae-182ec208c221

Btw, rail trafic to Kaliningrad does not go through Estonia.
See the Supermap on Steam Engine IS page -
http://www.parovoz.com/maps/supermap/supermap.php?X=C&Y=1&LANG=en

On the whole I see no point in regauging the Finnish railroads. Russia
certainly is not going to do that. Existing rail connections to the east
would be severely hampered with. The present gauge changing facilities
at the port of Turku and up north in Tornio/Haparanda are quite
sufficient for present-day needs. Actually I think that the Brits start
driving on the right side of the road sooner than Finns - or Russians -
start re-gauging their railroads to standard-gauge.

Timo
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 17:55:29 UTC
Permalink
No newsgroup, but two active mailing lists. The more active one is called
"1520mm" and is in Russian, and the less active one is "5feet" in English.
To join them visit: http://www.parovoz.com/1520mm/index-e.html
I've subscribed to both for more than a decade now.
Hardly a taboo. You are welcome to adress your views there using the
language of the list. English in the Russian language list is concidered
as spam, so please bear that in mind.
For starters you'll get angry feed-back if talk about "correcting a
historic error" as what refers to different gauges. But do try your luck!
As a Finn in Helsinki I don't see any need at all for a standard-gauge
link from Helsinki via St Petersburg to Tallinn. That would be a distance
of nearly 800 km. Right noe Finnish and Estonian authorities have launched
plans to expolre the feasebility of a direct rail tunnel between these two
cities, which are only 80 km apart. That would make commuting between
Helsinki and Tallinn just as easy as commuting between Copenhagen and
Malmö is today over the Öresund bridge.
http://www.balticbusinessnews.com/Default2.aspx?ArticleID=2a7f79e3-980e-4ef1-99ae-182ec208c221
Are you aware of the fact that baltic states are pressed by the EU to
convert?
Btw, rail trafic to Kaliningrad does not go through Estonia.
See the Supermap on Steam Engine IS page -
http://www.parovoz.com/maps/supermap/supermap.php?X=C&Y=1&LANG=en
It runs through Lithuania. If they introduce standard gauge (see above), the
russian line could be converted as well.
On the whole I see no point in regauging the Finnish railroads. Russia
certainly is not going to do that. Existing rail connections to the east
would be severely hampered with. The present gauge changing facilities at
the port of Turku and up north in Tornio/Haparanda are quite sufficient
for present-day needs. Actually I think that the Brits start driving on
the right side of the road sooner than Finns - or Russians - start
re-gauging their railroads to standard-gauge.
Thanks for the info.

Regarding the gauge differences, I don't agree with you. All countries that
are visionary and open-minded do realise what an error a gauge different
from standard gauge is. Otherwise, countries like Spain and Portugal
wouldn't convert. Otherwise, countries in south-east Asia or parts of Africa
wouldn't make 1435 at least possible. To mention just the two examples that
come spontaneously to my mind.

This is exactly what I suggest: Leave the option open, by laying sleepers
that permit both gauges, so that you can convert lines when you're ready.
This is nowadays a totally mechanised process where thousands of kilometres
are done within days.

If you, however, refuse to start thinking about it in the first place, you
will certainly never get there.
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-16 18:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
No newsgroup, but two active mailing lists. The more active one is called
"1520mm" and is in Russian, and the less active one is "5feet" in English.
To join them visit: http://www.parovoz.com/1520mm/index-e.html
I've subscribed to both for more than a decade now.
Hardly a taboo. You are welcome to adress your views there using the
language of the list. English in the Russian language list is concidered
as spam, so please bear that in mind.
For starters you'll get angry feed-back if talk about "correcting a
historic error" as what refers to different gauges. But do try your luck!
As a Finn in Helsinki I don't see any need at all for a standard-gauge
link from Helsinki via St Petersburg to Tallinn. That would be a distance
of nearly 800 km. Right noe Finnish and Estonian authorities have launched
plans to expolre the feasebility of a direct rail tunnel between these two
cities, which are only 80 km apart. That would make commuting between
Helsinki and Tallinn just as easy as commuting between Copenhagen and
Malmö is today over the Öresund bridge.
http://www.balticbusinessnews.com/Default2.aspx?ArticleID=2a7f79e3-980e-4ef1-99ae-182ec208c221
Are you aware of the fact that baltic states are pressed by the EU to
convert?
Are they? Why? And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal? Not to
mention all the various 1m and 2'6" gauge lines still around. And the
Glasgow subway.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Btw, rail trafic to Kaliningrad does not go through Estonia.
See the Supermap on Steam Engine IS page -
http://www.parovoz.com/maps/supermap/supermap.php?X=C&Y=1&LANG=en
It runs through Lithuania. If they introduce standard gauge (see above), the
russian line could be converted as well.
On the whole I see no point in regauging the Finnish railroads. Russia
certainly is not going to do that. Existing rail connections to the east
would be severely hampered with. The present gauge changing facilities at
the port of Turku and up north in Tornio/Haparanda are quite sufficient
for present-day needs. Actually I think that the Brits start driving on
the right side of the road sooner than Finns - or Russians - start
re-gauging their railroads to standard-gauge.
Thanks for the info.
Regarding the gauge differences, I don't agree with you. All countries that
are visionary and open-minded do realise what an error a gauge different
from standard gauge is. Otherwise, countries like Spain and Portugal
wouldn't convert. Otherwise, countries in south-east Asia or parts of Africa
wouldn't make 1435 at least possible. To mention just the two examples that
come spontaneously to my mind.
But in SE Asia it would break the network effect if one place changed
from metre gauge.

India is firmly 5'6".

New Zealand, southern Africa?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
This is exactly what I suggest: Leave the option open, by laying sleepers
that permit both gauges, so that you can convert lines when you're ready.
This is nowadays a totally mechanised process where thousands of kilometres
are done within days.
If you, however, refuse to start thinking about it in the first place, you
will certainly never get there.
Maybe western Europe could convert to broad gauge? A line to Vienna
keeps raising its head.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 19:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Are you aware of the fact that baltic states are pressed by the EU to
convert?
Are they?
Yes, I read so several times, in reliable sources.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Why?
You ask?! I don't have to explain you the advantages of a uniform gauge, do
I? Just imagine you would have to change bogies at the Channel tunnel,
instead of just rushing through.
Post by Arthur Figgis
And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal?
Ireland is an island. If it ever were connected to Britain, it would most
probably adapt. That would be fairly easy, regarding its 1600 mm and today's
technology.

Spain builds all its new lines in 1435. Where they still use the iberian
gauge, they use sleepers that have mounting positions for both gauges.
(Partially, they also mount a third rail at standard-gauge distance.) This
type of sleepers permits mechanised track conversion. Thousands of
kilometres can be converted within days.

Portugal has no choice but continue building the 1435 lines Spain delivers
them.



Not to
Post by Arthur Figgis
mention all the various 1m and 2'6" gauge lines still around. And the
Glasgow subway.
I assume this is supposed to be funny?
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Regarding the gauge differences, I don't agree with you. All countries
that are visionary and open-minded do realise what an error a gauge
different from standard gauge is. Otherwise, countries like Spain and
Portugal wouldn't convert. Otherwise, countries in south-east Asia or
parts of Africa wouldn't make 1435 at least possible. To mention just the
two examples that come spontaneously to my mind.
But in SE Asia it would break the network effect if one place changed from
metre gauge.
Its like saying, a glass is half full, if you also can say, it's half empty.
In other words: You start one place, and others will follow.
Post by Arthur Figgis
India is firmly 5'6".
Yeah. They appear equally stubborn as the russians, at least in this issue.
Post by Arthur Figgis
New Zealand,
That's a mountainous country (at least the southern island) where narrow
gauge was easier to build.
Post by Arthur Figgis
southern Africa?
The new Gauteng train will be in 1435. Also, in south east Africa, the
development seems to go towards 1435. You'll find lots of useful info on
this subject if you start reading at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge

and go from there.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
If you, however, refuse to start thinking about it in the first place,
you will certainly never get there.
Maybe western Europe could convert to broad gauge? A line to Vienna keeps
raising its head.
'Joking' again? It's getting boring, I'm afraid.
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-16 20:39:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Are you aware of the fact that baltic states are pressed by the EU to
convert?
Are they?
Yes, I read so several times, in reliable sources.
Cite, please. Whatever Wikipedia is, it's not a reliable source.

What would be the point? The amount of stuff waiting to be shipped from
western Europe to the Baltic states must be rather smaller than the
amount of stuff from 1520-land needing access to the sea.

Traffic on the existing lines _between_ the Baltic states isn't exactly
going to confuse anyone into thinking they are looking at Clapham
Junction in the morning peak. A scheme for a Talgo service from Berlin
never happened, so regauging seems a bit silly.

How about, say, putting the effort into getting HSL Zuid to work first?
ERTMS would be far more use than regauging the Baltics.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Why?
You ask?! I don't have to explain you the advantages of a uniform gauge, do
I? Just imagine you would have to change bogies at the Channel tunnel,
instead of just rushing through.
Imagine if you had to build special trains because of the safety
regulations, types of traffic were restricted, and the loading gauge at
one side was rather small. Oh, hang on....

Imagine if freight was carried in boxes which could be moved between
trains on different gauges, or even lorries and ships. Ah.

Someone in the freight world once told me that technical matters like
gauge were a minor issue, as long as all the paperwork needs to be in
both the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets, and you can't be sure that what
goes into Belarus will emerge from the other side intact.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal?
Ireland is an island. If it ever were connected to Britain, it would most
probably adapt. That would be fairly easy, regarding its 1600 mm and today's
technology.
Spain builds all its new lines in 1435.
Tell that to the Bilbao metro, which joins with an existing metre-gauge
line.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Where they still use the iberian
gauge, they use sleepers that have mounting positions for both gauges.
(Partially, they also mount a third rail at standard-gauge distance.) This
type of sleepers permits mechanised track conversion. Thousands of
kilometres can be converted within days.
Portugal has no choice but continue building the 1435 lines Spain delivers
them.
Not to
Post by Arthur Figgis
mention all the various 1m and 2'6" gauge lines still around. And the
Glasgow subway.
I assume this is supposed to be funny?
No (well, except Glasgow). There is a fair chunk of metre gauge in
Europe, even if the remaining 2'6"ish is a bit of a backwater. Look at
the north of Spain.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Regarding the gauge differences, I don't agree with you. All countries
that are visionary and open-minded do realise what an error a gauge
different from standard gauge is. Otherwise, countries like Spain and
Portugal wouldn't convert. Otherwise, countries in south-east Asia or
parts of Africa wouldn't make 1435 at least possible. To mention just the
two examples that come spontaneously to my mind.
But in SE Asia it would break the network effect if one place changed from
metre gauge.
Its like saying, a glass is half full, if you also can say, it's half empty.
In other words: You start one place, and others will follow.
Or they will just buy some lorries and save all the hassle.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
India is firmly 5'6".
Yeah. They appear equally stubborn as the russians, at least in this issue.
Post by Arthur Figgis
New Zealand,
That's a mountainous country (at least the southern island) where narrow
gauge was easier to build.
Post by Arthur Figgis
southern Africa?
The new Gauteng train will be in 1435.
And totally incompatable with anything for hundreds of miles. It is even
to a UK loading gauge, which seems really bizarre. Maybe they are hoping
for a Morocco - Dover tunnel, bypassing most of the Continent. Don't
fancy that on a train with no loos.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Also, in south east Africa, the
development seems to go towards 1435. You'll find lots of useful info on
this subject if you start reading at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge
and go from there.
Is it the ""original research" or the "unverified claims" that I should
be looking at?

Much of Africa has rather better things to do with its money than break
up the current network. Zimbabwe can't afford the juice for the electric
locos, how would it rebuild? Southern Sudan has bigger problems than its
neighbours having metre gauge railways.

Anyone can propose a high speed line anywhere, but can they fund it?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
If you, however, refuse to start thinking about it in the first place,
you will certainly never get there.
Maybe western Europe could convert to broad gauge? A line to Vienna keeps
raising its head.
'Joking' again? It's getting boring, I'm afraid.
Ah, so it is just that crazy Slovak sense of humour:

Broad gauge to Austria
03 May 2008
EUROPE: A protocol setting out plans to study the feasibility of
extending a 1 520 mm gauge line to Bratislava and Wien has been signed
by the national railways of Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine and Russia. The
hope is that a through broad gauge route will help to attract freight
traffic from Asia to Europe to the railways.

The study agreed on March 28 will look into the technical and financial
feasibility of modernising and extending the broad gauge line which was
built to transport iron ore from the Ukraine to steel works at Kosice in
eastern Slovakia.

RZD President Vladimir Yakunin told a press conference in Bratislava
that the cost is estimated at US$4·3bn, which could be met by the four
national railways. A business plan will be prepared in 2009 setting out
the project timescales and investments required.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2008/05/8399/broad_gauge_to_austria.html
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 21:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Yes, I read so several times, in reliable sources.
Cite, please.
Official EU material. I didn't put down the URLs. You should be able to find
it for yourself.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Whatever Wikipedia is, it's not a reliable source.
Don't you make things a little too easy for you? If you knew Wikipedia for
yourself, you knew that there a lots of knowledgeable people.
Post by Arthur Figgis
What would be the point? The amount of stuff waiting to be shipped from
western Europe to the Baltic states must be rather smaller than the amount
of stuff from 1520-land needing access to the sea.
Traffic on the existing lines _between_ the Baltic states isn't exactly
going to confuse anyone into thinking they are looking at Clapham Junction
in the morning peak. A scheme for a Talgo service from Berlin never
happened, so regauging seems a bit silly.
Think BIG. Russia lies between China and Europe. Railway-wise, it is a huge
and stubborn obstacle. It wouldn't have to be, regarding todays's technical
possibilities (adjustable sleepers; check the spanish term 'traviesa
polivalente', you'll find many texts and photos).
Post by Arthur Figgis
How about, say, putting the effort into getting HSL Zuid to work first?
My recent information was that test rides would start in september. Haven't
they started?
Post by Arthur Figgis
ERTMS would be far more use than regauging the Baltics.
It's not a question of either - or.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Imagine if you had to build special trains because of the safety
regulations, types of traffic were restricted, and the loading gauge at
one side was rather small. Oh, hang on....
Imagine if freight was carried in boxes which could be moved between
trains on different gauges, or even lorries and ships. Ah.
Someone in the freight world once told me that technical matters like
gauge were a minor issue, as long as all the paperwork needs to be in both
the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets, and you can't be sure that what goes
into Belarus will emerge from the other side intact.
Look - I'm certainly not without humour. But your nonsense-style 'humour'
won't get you nowhere with me. Don't claim that nobody told you. >.)
Post by Arthur Figgis
Tell that to the Bilbao metro, which joins with an existing metre-gauge
line.
? Do you wish to be taken serious?
Post by Arthur Figgis
No (well, except Glasgow). There is a fair chunk of metre gauge in Europe,
even if the remaining 2'6"ish is a bit of a backwater. Look at the north
of Spain.
Idem.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Or they will just buy some lorries and save all the hassle.
(Ahem)
Post by Arthur Figgis
And totally incompatable with anything for hundreds of miles.
It's a start heading in the right direction. 'Even the longest voyage starts
with the first step.' You don't really know what vision and similar things
are, do you?



It is even
Post by Arthur Figgis
to a UK loading gauge, which seems really bizarre. Maybe they are hoping
for a Morocco - Dover tunnel, bypassing most of the Continent. Don't fancy
that on a train with no loos.
My god, he's on his 'humour' track again. Can anyone convert him back to
standard track?
Post by Arthur Figgis
Is it the ""original research" or the "unverified claims" that I should be
looking at?
Much of Africa has rather better things to do with its money than break up
the current network. Zimbabwe can't afford the juice for the electric
locos, how would it rebuild? Southern Sudan has bigger problems than its
neighbours having metre gauge railways.
Anyone can propose a high speed line anywhere, but can they fund it?
Look at the Wiki link I gave you (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge ), and proceed from there.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Broad gauge to Austria
03 May 2008
EUROPE: A protocol setting out plans to study the feasibility of extending
a 1 520 mm gauge line to Bratislava and Wien has been signed by the
national railways of Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine and Russia. The hope is
that a through broad gauge route will help to attract freight traffic from
Asia to Europe to the railways.
The study agreed on March 28 will look into the technical and financial
feasibility of modernising and extending the broad gauge line which was
built to transport iron ore from the Ukraine to steel works at Kosice in
eastern Slovakia.
RZD President Vladimir Yakunin told a press conference in Bratislava that
the cost is estimated at US$4·3bn, which could be met by the four national
railways. A business plan will be prepared in 2009 setting out the project
timescales and investments required.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2008/05/8399/broad_gauge_to_austria.html
So what? It's the same things like, let's say, a german electric overhead
wire doesn't stop at the border but runs to the next station inside the
neighbouring country, where the system change is (or was) easier made than
at the border.

By the way, had you read the Wiki article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge , you would know that the 1520
network has a length of 227 000 km (incl Finland), while the worldwide
standard-gauge network is 720 000 km. That's more than 3 times.
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-16 22:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Yes, I read so several times, in reliable sources.
Cite, please.
Official EU material. I didn't put down the URLs. You should be able to find
it for yourself.
Hmmmmmmm. So that's a "No".

If it is true, why haven't Today's Railways, Continental Railway Journal
et al spotted this?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Whatever Wikipedia is, it's not a reliable source.
Don't you make things a little too easy for you? If you knew Wikipedia for
yourself, you knew that there a lots of knowledgeable people.
Yes. And even more loonies, nutters, and people with time on their
hands. And they can often shout loudest.

A /British Rail/ Class 377?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_377
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
What would be the point? The amount of stuff waiting to be shipped from
western Europe to the Baltic states must be rather smaller than the amount
of stuff from 1520-land needing access to the sea.
Traffic on the existing lines _between_ the Baltic states isn't exactly
going to confuse anyone into thinking they are looking at Clapham Junction
in the morning peak. A scheme for a Talgo service from Berlin never
happened, so regauging seems a bit silly.
Think BIG. Russia lies between China and Europe. Railway-wise, it is a huge
and stubborn obstacle. It wouldn't have to be, regarding todays's technical
possibilities (adjustable sleepers; check the spanish term 'traviesa
polivalente', you'll find many texts and photos).
Russia has rather a lot of railway traffic as it is.

The gauge wasn't a big enough obstacle to stop a freight train from
China to Hamburg a few months ago. Finding traffic which is justifies a
higher cost than shipping but lower speeds than air might be trickier.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
How about, say, putting the effort into getting HSL Zuid to work first?
My recent information was that test rides would start in september. Haven't
they started?
Not that I've heard. And I've only seen photos of an Albatross in Velim
so far.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
ERTMS would be far more use than regauging the Baltics.
It's not a question of either - or.
It is if you don't have the money.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Imagine if you had to build special trains because of the safety
regulations, types of traffic were restricted, and the loading gauge at
one side was rather small. Oh, hang on....
Imagine if freight was carried in boxes which could be moved between
trains on different gauges, or even lorries and ships. Ah.
Someone in the freight world once told me that technical matters like
gauge were a minor issue, as long as all the paperwork needs to be in both
the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets, and you can't be sure that what goes
into Belarus will emerge from the other side intact.
Look - I'm certainly not without humour. But your nonsense-style 'humour'
won't get you nowhere with me. Don't claim that nobody told you. >.)
Not humour, just facts.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Tell that to the Bilbao metro, which joins with an existing metre-gauge
line.
? Do you wish to be taken serious?
Go and have a look if you don't believe me. It is even on Wikipedia (at
the moment!).
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
No (well, except Glasgow). There is a fair chunk of metre gauge in Europe,
even if the remaining 2'6"ish is a bit of a backwater. Look at the north
of Spain.
Idem.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Or they will just buy some lorries and save all the hassle.
(Ahem)
Why bother going metre-standard-metre in SE Asia, when you already have
metre all the way? The problem with linking Thailand with India is not
gauge, it is Myanmar, the Billy-No-Mates of the international community
(plus possibly some historic sensitivity about the route).
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
And totally incompatable with anything for hundreds of miles.
It's a start heading in the right direction. 'Even the longest voyage starts
with the first step.' You don't really know what vision and similar things
are, do you?
Vision has its place. If I was a railway design engineer in an office in
1940s Berlin, I'd be all in favour of visionary gauge projects.

But not now. Ask the man on the Clapham Junction train how much
disruption he would like so that his train has the same gauge as one in
Ulaan Bator.

If the Iron Rhine is too difficult, North of London Eurostar impossible,
the wiggly line between Bosnia and Croatia moribund, and we have a
world of Bushes, Putins and <insert name of Georgian chap>, re-gauging
Russia can go in the "to do" tray for a long time.

It doesn't matter what gauge Estonia is if there is dubious railway
politics going on and the traffic has gone. The problems of Chunnel
freight are not because Belarus is broad gauge.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
It is even
Post by Arthur Figgis
to a UK loading gauge, which seems really bizarre. Maybe they are hoping
for a Morocco - Dover tunnel, bypassing most of the Continent. Don't fancy
that on a train with no loos.
My god, he's on his 'humour' track again. Can anyone convert him back to
standard track?
Nope, Gautrain rolling stock really is the same profile as UK stock. Not
some sensible European profile, but UK sizes. Maybe Bombardier offered
it cheap to keep the Derby production lines ticking over, or something.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Is it the ""original research" or the "unverified claims" that I should be
looking at?
Much of Africa has rather better things to do with its money than break up
the current network. Zimbabwe can't afford the juice for the electric
locos, how would it rebuild? Southern Sudan has bigger problems than its
neighbours having metre gauge railways.
Anyone can propose a high speed line anywhere, but can they fund it?
Look at the Wiki link I gave you (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge ), and proceed from there.
An article which even the 'pediaphiles have labelled "This article or
section may contain original research or unverified claims."

If Japan with all its wealth can survive with Cape gauge, Mozambique
must be able to as well.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Broad gauge to Austria
03 May 2008
EUROPE: A protocol setting out plans to study the feasibility of extending
a 1 520 mm gauge line to Bratislava and Wien has been signed by the
national railways of Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine and Russia. The hope is
that a through broad gauge route will help to attract freight traffic from
Asia to Europe to the railways.
The study agreed on March 28 will look into the technical and financial
feasibility of modernising and extending the broad gauge line which was
built to transport iron ore from the Ukraine to steel works at Kosice in
eastern Slovakia.
RZD President Vladimir Yakunin told a press conference in Bratislava that
the cost is estimated at US$4·3bn, which could be met by the four national
railways. A business plan will be prepared in 2009 setting out the project
timescales and investments required.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2008/05/8399/broad_gauge_to_austria.html
So what? It's the same things like, let's say, a german electric overhead
wire doesn't stop at the border but runs to the next station inside the
neighbouring country, where the system change is (or was) easier made than
at the border.
You need a better map!
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
By the way, had you read the Wiki article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge , you would know that the 1520
network has a length of 227 000 km (incl Finland), while the worldwide
standard-gauge network is 720 000 km. That's more than 3 times.
Much of it in the Americas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bering_Strait_bridge (happy with the source)
"the construction of such a bridge or tunnel would face unprecedented
engineering, political, and financial challenges, and to date, no
government has authorized the start of any planning or construction."

And while I've seen mention of proposals for a Korea - Japan tunnel,
I've never seen a suggestion for a tunnel to Australia.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
valtsu
2008-09-17 07:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Yes, I read so several times, in reliable sources.
Cite, please.
Official EU material. I didn't put down the URLs. You should be able
to find it for yourself.
Hmmmmmmm. So that's a "No".
If it is true, why haven't Today's Railways, Continental Railway Journal
et al spotted this?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Whatever Wikipedia is, it's not a reliable source.
Don't you make things a little too easy for you? If you knew Wikipedia
for yourself, you knew that there a lots of knowledgeable people.
Yes. And even more loonies, nutters, and people with time on their
hands. And they can often shout loudest.
The ERA - European Railway Agency web site is certainly more reliable
than Wikipedia without references. Regauging of 1520/1524 mm to 1435 mm
is not an issue. Have a look:
http://www.era.europa.eu/public/core/interoperability/Pages/CRTSI_1520mmsystem.aspx
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 08:48:16 UTC
Permalink
The ERA - European Railway Agency web site is certainly more reliable than
Wikipedia without references. Regauging of 1520/1524 mm to 1435 mm is not
http://www.era.europa.eu/public/core/interoperability/Pages/CRTSI_1520mmsystem.aspx
Can you read portuguese? I found anarticle written by their railway engineer
society, about two years ago, written after a visit to Brussels, where (in
that article) they triumphantly proclaimed that they had been allowed to
maintain their iberian gauge.

Seen from today's point of view, Spain will deliver several standard-gauge
lines right to their border, within the very foreseeable future. In what
gauge do you think the portuguese will continue constructing them?

The same thing would be true for the 1520 block: Create facts. Then their
rusty minds will start moving again.

It CAN be done. The solution is called *adjustable sleeper* (if this is the
english term; in spanish it's called 'traviesa polivalente', you can find
texts and images via Google). First, the tracks are mounted in the old
gauge. When conversion day has arrived, a track conversion train rolls over
the line chosen, automatically converting it to standard gauge. It does it
at am amazing speed: Entire lines are done within a couple of days.
Graeme Wall
2008-09-17 10:03:20 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@news.alt.net>
"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by valtsu
The ERA - European Railway Agency web site is certainly more reliable
than Wikipedia without references. Regauging of 1520/1524 mm to 1435 mm
http://www.era.europa.eu/public/core/interoperability/Pages/CRTSI_1520mmsystem.aspx
Can you read portuguese? I found anarticle written by their railway
engineer society, about two years ago, written after a visit to Brussels,
where (in that article) they triumphantly proclaimed that they had been
allowed to maintain their iberian gauge.
Seen from today's point of view, Spain will deliver several standard-gauge
lines right to their border, within the very foreseeable future. In what
gauge do you think the portuguese will continue constructing them?
The standard gauge lines in Spain are dedicated high speed lines. Far from
the 'several' lines you claim, possibly only one or two will cross the
Spanish-Portuguese border within the forseeable future.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
The same thing would be true for the 1520 block: Create facts. Then their
rusty minds will start moving again.
Create facts? That certainly seems to be the problem with your arguements.
One doesn't create facts unless one is a politician.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
It CAN be done. The solution is called *adjustable sleeper* (if this is the
english term; in spanish it's called 'traviesa polivalente', you can find
texts and images via Google).
So you keep ranting, but altering the track is only a fraction of the work
involved in gauge changing. You have not addressed the other issues at all.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 11:27:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
The standard gauge lines in Spain are dedicated high speed lines. Far from
the 'several' lines you claim, possibly only one or two will cross the
Spanish-Portuguese border within the forseeable future.
Why do you say 'possibly only one or two '? At least two are certain, at
this stage. More aren't unlikely, considering the spanish enthusiasm.
Post by Graeme Wall
Create facts? That certainly seems to be the problem with your arguements.
One doesn't create facts unless one is a politician.
So?
Post by Graeme Wall
So you keep ranting, but altering the track is only a fraction of the work
involved in gauge changing. You have not addressed the other issues at all.
'Ranting'? Do you think the spaniards haven't solved these problems while
converting their gauge?

To summarize it again: It CAN be done, also in the russian case. It all
depends on your attitude.
valtsu
2008-09-17 12:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
The standard gauge lines in Spain are dedicated high speed lines. Far from
the 'several' lines you claim, possibly only one or two will cross the
Spanish-Portuguese border within the forseeable future.
Why do you say 'possibly only one or two '? At least two are certain, at
this stage. More aren't unlikely, considering the spanish enthusiasm.
Post by Graeme Wall
Create facts? That certainly seems to be the problem with your arguements.
One doesn't create facts unless one is a politician.
So?
Post by Graeme Wall
So you keep ranting, but altering the track is only a fraction of the work
involved in gauge changing. You have not addressed the other issues at all.
'Ranting'? Do you think the spaniards haven't solved these problems while
converting their gauge?
To summarize it again: It CAN be done, also in the russian case. It all
depends on your attitude.
Of course it can be done, but why? If through-trafic from/to 1520mm area
from/to 1435mm area is only 0,001% of total trafic volume within 1520mm
area and could increase to max 0,002% if the tracks would be regauged?
Why should the billions be spent? To get our souls saved?

This whole debate is starting to look like the Pope in Vatican
addressing abortion or gay marriage issues.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 13:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by valtsu
Of course it can be done, but why? If through-trafic from/to 1520mm area
from/to 1435mm area is only 0,001% of total trafic volume within 1520mm
area and could increase to max 0,002% if the tracks would be regauged? Why
should the billions be spent? To get our souls saved?
This whole debate is starting to look like the Pope in Vatican addressing
abortion or gay marriage issues.
You confuse cause and consequence. You have a hidden agenda, I assume. This
debate is useless because you and others don't wish it to proceed.
Jerry
2008-09-17 16:05:16 UTC
Permalink
"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
<***@your.earliest.convenience> wrote in message news:***@news.alt.net...
<snip>
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
You confuse cause and consequence. You have a hidden agenda, I
assume.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
--
Wikipedia: the Internet equivalent of
Hyde Park and 'speakers corner'...
Jerry
2008-09-17 16:03:29 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by valtsu
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
To summarize it again: It CAN be done, also in the russian case. It
all depends on your attitude.
Of course it can be done, but why? If through-trafic from/to 1520mm
area from/to 1435mm area is only 0,001% of total trafic volume
within 1520mm area and could increase to max 0,002% if the tracks
would be regauged? Why should the billions be spent? To get our
souls saved?
It would be cheaper to trans-ship containers, or swap-out bogies,
especially were labour (to the end shipper) is cheap - hmm, isn't that
were this thread came in?...
--
Wikipedia: the Internet equivalent of
Hyde Park and 'speakers corner'...
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-17 20:39:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by valtsu
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
The standard gauge lines in Spain are dedicated high speed lines.
Far from
the 'several' lines you claim, possibly only one or two will cross the
Spanish-Portuguese border within the forseeable future.
Why do you say 'possibly only one or two '? At least two are certain,
at this stage. More aren't unlikely, considering the spanish enthusiasm.
Post by Graeme Wall
Create facts? That certainly seems to be the problem with your arguements.
One doesn't create facts unless one is a politician.
So?
Post by Graeme Wall
So you keep ranting, but altering the track is only a fraction of the work
involved in gauge changing. You have not addressed the other issues at all.
'Ranting'? Do you think the spaniards haven't solved these problems
while converting their gauge?
To summarize it again: It CAN be done, also in the russian case. It
all depends on your attitude.
Of course it can be done, but why? If through-trafic from/to 1520mm area
from/to 1435mm area is only 0,001% of total trafic volume within 1520mm
area and could increase to max 0,002% if the tracks would be regauged?
Why should the billions be spent? To get our souls saved?
This whole debate is starting to look like the Pope in Vatican
addressing abortion or gay marriage issues.
At least the holy father's railway is standard gauge :)

Serious question - how many km of line has Spain actually converted? Not
built from new, not laid with convertible sleepers, not discussed in the
pages of El Trainspotterro Monthly, but actually converted?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Lennart Petersen
2008-09-18 14:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by valtsu
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
The standard gauge lines in Spain are dedicated high speed lines. Far from
the 'several' lines you claim, possibly only one or two will cross the
Spanish-Portuguese border within the forseeable future.
Why do you say 'possibly only one or two '? At least two are certain, at
this stage. More aren't unlikely, considering the spanish enthusiasm.
Post by Graeme Wall
Create facts? That certainly seems to be the problem with your arguements.
One doesn't create facts unless one is a politician.
So?
Post by Graeme Wall
So you keep ranting, but altering the track is only a fraction of the work
involved in gauge changing. You have not addressed the other issues at all.
'Ranting'? Do you think the spaniards haven't solved these problems
while converting their gauge?
To summarize it again: It CAN be done, also in the russian case. It all
depends on your attitude.
Of course it can be done, but why? If through-trafic from/to 1520mm area
from/to 1435mm area is only 0,001% of total trafic volume within 1520mm
area and could increase to max 0,002% if the tracks would be regauged?
Why should the billions be spent? To get our souls saved?
This whole debate is starting to look like the Pope in Vatican addressing
abortion or gay marriage issues.
At least the holy father's railway is standard gauge :)
Serious question - how many km of line has Spain actually converted? Not
built from new, not laid with convertible sleepers, not discussed in the
pages of El Trainspotterro Monthly, but actually converted?
------
AFAIK they've converted Zaragoza-Huesca (around 80km) with three rail to
allow standard gauge to allow one (in the weekend two) AVE to run
Madrid-Huesca
Richard Mlynarik
2008-09-18 20:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Lennart Petersen wrote, On 2008-09-18 07:31:

[...]
Post by Lennart Petersen
Post by Arthur Figgis
Serious question - how many km of line has Spain actually converted? Not
built from new, not laid with convertible sleepers, not discussed in the
pages of El Trainspotterro Monthly, but actually converted?
AFAIK they've converted Zaragoza-Huesca (around 80km) with three rail to
allow standard gauge to allow one (in the weekend two) AVE to run
Madrid-Huesca
Just because it is interesting, here is (or was, as of a year or so
ago) a schematic of the mixed gauge plan for Valencia:

Loading Image...

Red is old Iberian gauge (1600mm) for the cercanías (S-Bahn),
blue is 1435mm standard gauge
green is mixed.

See also the more geographical overview
Loading Image...

What a tangle!
Lüko Willms
2008-09-19 08:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:39:07 UTC, schrieb Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Serious question - how many km of line has Spain actually converted?
And what about the narrow gauge lines? FEVE (Ferrocarriles Españoles
de Vía Estrecha) unites 1250 km of lines narrower than the Iberian
track gauge (750 mm, 915 mm, 1000 mm, 1062 mm and 1435 mm), mostly
operated by regional units, like EuskoTren, FGC (Barcelona,
Generalitat de Catalunya), FGV en Valencia, and on Mallorca, but also
some other regional networks.


Cheers,
L.W.
Lüko Willms
2008-09-21 07:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:39:07 UTC, schrieb Arthur Figgis
Post by Arthur Figgis
Serious question - how many km of line has Spain actually converted? Not
built from new, not laid with convertible sleepers, not discussed in the
pages of El Trainspotterro Monthly, but actually converted?
None that I know of, but actually Fomento, i.e. the Spanish ministry
of infrastructure and transport, does have as one of its goals in the
rail policies, "Definición de una estrategia para el cambio de ancho
en la red convencional", i.e. the "definition of a strategy to change
the track gauge of the conventional railway network", which I repeat
myself, does certainly exclude the narrow gauge rail network, which
makes up about one tenth of the Spanish network overall[1]. This is
specified in this list
Post by Arthur Figgis
<http://www.fomento.es/MFOM/LANG_CASTELLANO/DIRECCIONES_GENERALES/FERROCARRILES/GEN_POLITICA_FERROVIARIA/>
where one finds also the link to a PDF document which they say expands
that information.

According to an article in El País dated April 30, 2007,
Post by Arthur Figgis
<http://www.elpais.com/articulo/economia/Fomento/prepara/adaptacion/red/ferroviaria/ancho/internacional/elpepueco/20070430elpepieco_3/Tes>
Fomento is working on a study how to do it.

Now, the rail network in Spain administered by Adif (the
infrastructure company) amounts to only 12'991 km (at the end of 2006,
according to UIC statistics, including the standard gauge HSLs), which
is much much less than the 1520 mm networks in the former USSR and
Finland, and Spain is much more integrated within the European union
than Russia, so to say...

Of course, a gauge conversion from Iberian track gauge to UIC track
gauge would have to include the Portuguese network of 2839 km, in
order not to create new incompatabilities. So two countries would have
to agree on a common strategy... If that actually takes place -- who
knows. According to this article in El País, Spanish king Alfonso 13
already tried to get the track gauge converted, but the railway
companies stalled and then came the First World war. Remember: the
Fomento strategic directive is "to define a strategy", not yet
"actually change the gauge".

BTW, according to the El País article, there are already gauge
changing installations for CAF and/or Talgo trains at 12 places in
Spain, four of them with both technologies. This is for passenger
trains, while the process is not so easy for freight trains, even in
Transfesa's plants which do it very fast.


Cheers,
L.W.

[1]According to the UIC statistic, besides the Adif administered
network there are three narrow gauge networks:
- Euskotren with 180 km
- FEVE with 1194 km
- FGC (Ferrocarriles de la Generalitat de Catalunya) with 270 km
Lüko Willms
2008-09-17 16:44:24 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:27:08 UTC, schrieb "Michael Laudahn
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Do you think the spaniards haven't solved these problems while
converting their gauge?
They have _not_ converted their gauge. They have done two things:

a) built new high-speed lines with UIC-gauge and 25 kV~50 Hz instead
of 3 kV=.

b) built trains with variable gauge, switching from UIC-gauge to
Iberian gauge automatically within a few minutes; the trains running
at 15 km/h or so thru the changer.

No need to convert the existing network.


L.W.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 17:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
a) built new high-speed lines with UIC-gauge and 25 kV~50 Hz instead
of 3 kV=.
b) built trains with variable gauge, switching from UIC-gauge to
Iberian gauge automatically within a few minutes; the trains running
at 15 km/h or so thru the changer.
No need to convert the existing network.
Childist communist moron of german origin. They have taken the decision to
convert their entire network until 2020. Read Via Libre. Spanish would be an
advantage.
Jerry
2008-09-17 15:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by D7666
"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
<snip>
Post by D7666
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
It CAN be done. The solution is called *adjustable sleeper* (if this is the
english term; in spanish it's called 'traviesa polivalente', you can find
texts and images via Google).
So you keep ranting, but altering the track is only a fraction of the work
involved in gauge changing. You have not addressed the other issues at all.
Anyway, changing track gauge is not so simple - unless one is talking
about plain track - every turn-out/switch/point (take your pick of
terms for the same thing) and crossing will need to be rebuilt from
the sleeper-bed upwards and outwards...
--
Wikipedia: the Internet equivalent of
Hyde Park and 'speakers corner'...
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 08:41:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Hmmmmmmm. So that's a "No".
How dare you? You are just too lazy to do the searching work for yourself.
I'm not obliged to archive EU publications.

And moreover, you continue to give me an impression that you just argue for
arguing sake. You don't really have a point.
Post by Arthur Figgis
If it is true, why haven't Today's Railways, Continental Railway Journal
et al spotted this?
Ask them. Media are problematic, we all should know. I used to have a
subscription for a well-known railway magazine and cancelled it later,
because I wasn't content with the way it inflated uninteresting news while
almost bypassing big events.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Yes. And even more loonies, nutters, and people with time on their hands.
And they can often shout loudest.
So in other words, you don't know how Wikipedia works. The simple fact is
that their non-political articles are quite reliable. Also research has
shown it, as published by the media. Articles of political significance,
however, ought to be consumed with a teaspoon of salt, because of some bias.
And then, down on their pages they always indicate non-Wikipedia sources. Or
are they also compromised for you, just because the Wiki author mentioned
them?
Post by Arthur Figgis
Russia has rather a lot of railway traffic as it is.
You continue your small-scale thinking patterns.
Post by Arthur Figgis
The gauge wasn't a big enough obstacle to stop a freight train from China
to Hamburg a few months ago. Finding traffic which is justifies a higher
cost than shipping but lower speeds than air might be trickier.
It is big enough an obstacle to have led to the (ongoing) construction of a
standard-gauge track between China and Europe along the southern russian
border.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Not that I've heard. And I've only seen photos of an Albatross in Velim so
far.
Then listen again. I read it in a dutch newspaper a few weeks ago. Why
should they have cancelled the test rides? Do you think they construct a
bilion-euro high-speed ine in order to let it rot away?
Post by Arthur Figgis
It is if you don't have the money.
Russia not having money? Now you're really getting ridiculous.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Not humour, just facts.
Very disproportionate ones, and presented with a clearly malicious ulterior
motive.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Go and have a look if you don't believe me. It is even on Wikipedia (at
the moment!).
Idem.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Why bother going metre-standard-metre in SE Asia, when you already have
metre all the way? The problem with linking Thailand with India is not
gauge, it is Myanmar, the Billy-No-Mates of the international community
(plus possibly some historic sensitivity about the route).
This is just too foolish. I don't have time for this. You're a troll,
obviously. Do you want me to notify http://www.troll-transport.at/ ? This
will be the last thing I can do for you, unfortunately. Farewell.
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-17 21:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Hmmmmmmm. So that's a "No".
How dare you? You are just too lazy to do the searching work for yourself.
The onus is on you to justify your claims. Living in Britain, I've seen
rather too many "EU to do <something spurious>" claims with no evidence
provided.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
I'm not obliged to archive EU publications.
And moreover, you continue to give me an impression that you just argue for
arguing sake. You don't really have a point.
Post by Arthur Figgis
If it is true, why haven't Today's Railways, Continental Railway Journal
et al spotted this?
Ask them. Media are problematic, we all should know. I used to have a
subscription for a well-known railway magazine and cancelled it later,
because I wasn't content with the way it inflated uninteresting news while
almost bypassing big events.
"a well-known railway magazine" - do you have a morbid fear of quoting
sources? Maybe a footnote once stole your sweeties?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Yes. And even more loonies, nutters, and people with time on their hands.
And they can often shout loudest.
So in other words, you don't know how Wikipedia works. The simple fact is
that their non-political articles are quite reliable. Also research has
shown it, as published by the media.
I'll concede that its listings of cultural references in the Simpsons is
pretty impressive.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Articles of political significance,
however, ought to be consumed with a teaspoon of salt, because of some bias.
And then, down on their pages they always indicate non-Wikipedia sources. Or
are they also compromised for you, just because the Wiki author mentioned
them?
I think you will find that politics are a major part of the modern
railway. Do you think the border controls at Brussels Midi are because
Eurostar thinks they are a really good idea, or are they because of
politics?

Many Britons think that a link to France is bad enough, throwing open
the eastern EU border would be worse - and if you are going to stop for
customs, well, in that case the gauge isn't all that much of a problem.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Russia has rather a lot of railway traffic as it is.
You continue your small-scale thinking patterns.
Post by Arthur Figgis
The gauge wasn't a big enough obstacle to stop a freight train from China
to Hamburg a few months ago. Finding traffic which is justifies a higher
cost than shipping but lower speeds than air might be trickier.
It is big enough an obstacle to have led to the (ongoing) construction of a
standard-gauge track between China and Europe along the southern russian
border.
Politics again (is it actually happening, anyway, or was it just talk by
the *stans to scare the Russians?)
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Not that I've heard. And I've only seen photos of an Albatross in Velim so
far.
Then listen again. I read it in a dutch newspaper a few weeks ago. Why
should they have cancelled the test rides? Do you think they construct a
bilion-euro high-speed ine in order to let it rot away?
Liege - Germany, anyone?

HSL Zuid is running rather late. The trains aren't ready, and there were
acronym-heavy problems with the Dutch and Belgian signals not talking to
each other.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
It is if you don't have the money.
Russia not having money? Now you're really getting ridiculous.
But would they like to spend it making their railway compatible with
Luxembourg, or on repairing the roads, building schools-n-hospitals, on
arms, or vodka?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Not humour, just facts.
Very disproportionate ones, and presented with a clearly malicious ulterior
motive.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Go and have a look if you don't believe me. It is even on Wikipedia (at
the moment!).
Idem.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Why bother going metre-standard-metre in SE Asia, when you already have
metre all the way? The problem with linking Thailand with India is not
gauge, it is Myanmar, the Billy-No-Mates of the international community
(plus possibly some historic sensitivity about the route).
This is just too foolish. I don't have time for this. You're a troll,
obviously. Do you want me to notify http://www.troll-transport.at/ ?
How about a Whale Tanker? http://www.whale.co.uk/
Not seen any trolls on a train, but the Flaam railway has its own huldra
(according to Wikipedia).

You seem to be overlooking the fact that railways are there for moving
people and stuff, not for meeting specifications. Real-world politics
can't simply be ignored as an awkward inconvenience. Like the man
seeking directions in Ireland, ideally we wouldn't start from here - but
we have to.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
2008-09-19 02:05:12 UTC
Permalink
Helicopter Michi said: "TROLL"
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Hmmmmmmm. So that's a "No".
How dare you? You are just too lazy to do the searching work for yourself.
I'm not obliged to archive EU publications.
And so the abuse of other posters starts........
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Yes. And even more loonies, nutters, and people with time on their hands.
And they can often shout loudest.
So in other words, you don't know how Wikipedia works.
He certainly does. You mess up material written by others, than you
abuse those who want to stop you from doing it and then you get
banned! You should well know that from personal experience! LOL

<snip hubris, arrogance and insolence from Helicopter Michi Lau-wahn>
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
I don't have time for this. You're a troll,
obviously. Do you want me to notifyhttp://www.troll-transport.at/? This
will be the last thing I can do for you, unfortunately. Farewell.
Whats up doc?
Loosing your cool, don't you?
Soon you will be calling everyone who is unsympathetic to your madness
dirty Jew or Muslims, won't you? That is what you have been already
doing in other newsgroups.

Ördög
(Your scary shadow that says "Boo" in the dark)
Jishnu Mukerji
2008-09-17 17:45:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Why bother going metre-standard-metre in SE Asia, when you already have
metre all the way? The problem with linking Thailand with India is not
gauge, it is Myanmar, the Billy-No-Mates of the international community
(plus possibly some historic sensitivity about the route).
Besides if/when Thailand and India manage to connect up there will not
be any standard gauge involved. The gauges involved will be Metre and
Broad (1667mm).
U***@web.de
2019-12-02 11:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Are you aware of the fact that baltic states are pressed by the EU to
convert?
Are they?
Yes, I read so several times, in reliable sources.
Post by Arthur Figgis
Why?
You ask?! I don't have to explain you the advantages of a uniform gauge, do
I? Just imagine you would have to change bogies at the Channel tunnel,
instead of just rushing through.
Post by Arthur Figgis
And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal?
Ireland is an island. If it ever were connected to Britain, it would most
probably adapt. That would be fairly easy, regarding its 1600 mm and today's
technology.
Spain builds all its new lines in 1435.
11 years later I must say: not always.
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ADnea_de_alta_velocidad_Madrid_-_Extremadura#Apertura_parcial:_LAP_Plasencia-Badajoz
(to be converted to 1435 later).

Regards, ULF

Lennart Petersen
2008-09-16 19:53:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arthur Figgis
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by valtsu
No newsgroup, but two active mailing lists. The more active one is
called "1520mm" and is in Russian, and the less active one is "5feet" in
English. To join them visit: http://www.parovoz.com/1520mm/index-e.html
I've subscribed to both for more than a decade now.
Hardly a taboo. You are welcome to adress your views there using the
language of the list. English in the Russian language list is concidered
as spam, so please bear that in mind.
For starters you'll get angry feed-back if talk about "correcting a
historic error" as what refers to different gauges. But do try your luck!
As a Finn in Helsinki I don't see any need at all for a standard-gauge
link from Helsinki via St Petersburg to Tallinn. That would be a
distance of nearly 800 km. Right noe Finnish and Estonian authorities
have launched plans to expolre the feasebility of a direct rail tunnel
between these two cities, which are only 80 km apart. That would make
commuting between Helsinki and Tallinn just as easy as commuting between
Copenhagen and Malmö is today over the Öresund bridge.
http://www.balticbusinessnews.com/Default2.aspx?ArticleID=2a7f79e3-980e-4ef1-99ae-182ec208c221
Are you aware of the fact that baltic states are pressed by the EU to
convert?
Are they? Why? And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal? Not to
mention all the various 1m and 2'6" gauge lines still around. And the
Glasgow subway.
-----
They're not. And I've not seen any serious discussion about a gauge
conversion in the Baltic states. Their main freight volumes are from/to
Russia in the east-west direction.
Very little traffic in the north-south direction. Estonia have lost one
of two connections to Latvia (Moisakula) and the other ( Valga) have a small
flow of freight only.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 19:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lennart Petersen
Post by Arthur Figgis
Are they? Why? And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal? Not to
mention all the various 1m and 2'6" gauge lines still around. And the
Glasgow subway.
-----
They're not. And I've not seen any serious discussion about a gauge
conversion in the Baltic states. Their main freight volumes are from/to
Russia in the east-west direction.
Very little traffic in the north-south direction. Estonia have lost
one of two connections to Latvia (Moisakula) and the other ( Valga) have a
small flow of freight only.
?

Read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge ,

to start with.
Lennart Petersen
2008-09-16 20:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
Post by Arthur Figgis
Are they? Why? And if so, what about Ireland, Spain and Portugal? Not to
mention all the various 1m and 2'6" gauge lines still around. And the
Glasgow subway.
-----
They're not. And I've not seen any serious discussion about a gauge
conversion in the Baltic states. Their main freight volumes are from/to
Russia in the east-west direction.
Very little traffic in the north-south direction. Estonia have lost
one of two connections to Latvia (Moisakula) and the other ( Valga) have
a small flow of freight only.
?
Read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge ,
to start with.
Yes to start with :
This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.

Anyway whoever in a serious discussion refers to Wikipedia ?
And what does it say that contradicts me ?
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 21:13:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lennart Petersen
This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.
Anyway whoever in a serious discussion refers to Wikipedia ?
And what does it say that contradicts me ?
I told Arthur Figgis already: You make things too easy for yourself if you
try to disqualify all of Wikipedia right from the start. The only possible
conclusion then is that you are not interested in a serious discussion. Why?
Well, you apparently have motives why you don't like the subject, so you
attempt to make things look bad, ridiculous etc.
D7666
2008-09-16 21:30:15 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 16, 10:13 pm, "Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
This article or section may contain original research or unverified claims.
Anyway whoever in a serious discussion refers to Wikipedia ?
And what does it say that contradicts me ?
I told Arthur Figgis already: You make things too easy for yourself if you
try to disqualify all of Wikipedia right from the start. The only possible
conclusion then is that you are not interested in a serious discussion. Why?
Well, you apparently have motives why you don't like the subject, so you
attempt to make things look bad, ridiculous etc.
I have to take Arthurs' view.

Wikipedia is *not* to be taken as a reliable source: if the page you
quote has references, then see if what you want is there in those
references; if there are no references then treat what wiki says
sceptically. Donl;t forget no matter who writes in wiki, someone else
can overwrite.

I also agree there are no plans and AFAIK no EU pressure to convert
the Baltic states. Once again - as you have already been told - the
prime traffic in all 4 Baltic areas i.e. including Kaliningrad is
freight from Russia to Baltic sea ports. There is relatively not that
much traffic towards western Europe. I am speaking here with my Todays
Railways Consultant Editor hat on - we are not aware of any such plans
- and we've been on offical vists to both Lithunana and Latvia, and as
Kaliningrad won't change, thats 3 out of 4 I am sure on.

Can you quote a non-wiki (and none of those other searches that use
wiki) to support you claim that EU are ''pressing'' this.


--
Nick
Lüko Willms
2008-09-16 23:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by D7666
Can you quote a non-wiki (and none of those other searches that use
wiki) to support you claim that EU are ''pressing'' this.
Have you checked if not Mr. Laudahn has written those items in
Wikipedia himself?


cheers,
L.W.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 08:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
Have you checked if not Mr. Laudahn has written those items in
Wikipedia himself?
Oh, the infamous german communist again.
The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
2008-09-19 02:09:42 UTC
Permalink
Helicopter Michi Lau-wahn(the newsgroup terrorist who nukes everyone
disagreeing with him in his endless paranoid daydreams) is getting
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
 Have you checked if not Mr. Laudahn has written those items in
Wikipedia himself?
Oh, the infamous german communist again.
Bingo....so the name calling begins!

Ördög
(Your scary shadow that says "Boo" in the dark)
The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
2008-09-19 01:54:34 UTC
Permalink
  Have you checked if not Mr. Laudahn has written those items in
Wikipedia himself?
Mr Laudahn was banned from editing Wiki quite some time ago.

Stop wasting your time debating the trash he posts in 132 newsgroup
day in day out (see his Google profile: http://tinyurl.com/55qy39)
He is not at all interested in railways and their gauges...he only
wants to spread his propaganda.

Cheers
Ördög
Lüko Willms
2008-09-19 08:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
Stop wasting your time debating the trash he posts in 132 newsgroup
day in day out (see his Google profile: http://tinyurl.com/55qy39)
He is not at all interested in railways and their gauges...he only
wants to spread his propaganda.
I know the guy.

Cheers,
L.W.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 08:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by D7666
I have to take Arthurs' view.
Wikipedia is *not* to be taken as a reliable source: if the page you
quote has references, then see if what you want is there in those
references; if there are no references then treat what wiki says
sceptically. Donl;t forget no matter who writes in wiki, someone else
can overwrite.
I also agree there are no plans and AFAIK no EU pressure to convert
the Baltic states. Once again - as you have already been told - the
prime traffic in all 4 Baltic areas i.e. including Kaliningrad is
freight from Russia to Baltic sea ports. There is relatively not that
much traffic towards western Europe. I am speaking here with my Todays
Railways Consultant Editor hat on - we are not aware of any such plans
- and we've been on offical vists to both Lithunana and Latvia, and as
Kaliningrad won't change, thats 3 out of 4 I am sure on.
Can you quote a non-wiki (and none of those other searches that use
wiki) to support you claim that EU are ''pressing'' this.
This is getting ridiculous: I have so far only met people opposing my view.
These are not real-world conditions.

You opponents seem to be organised. I'm having grwoing problems to take this
debate serious.
Lüko Willms
2008-09-17 11:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:50:39 UTC, schrieb "Michael Laudahn
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
This is getting ridiculous: I have so far only met people opposing my view.
Das ist das Schicksal von Geisterfahrern.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
These are not real-world conditions.
On the contrary.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
You opponents seem to be organised.
I'm having grwoing problems to take this debate serious.
Dann nix wie weg und zurück in die braune Pißecke.


L.W.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 11:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
Das ist das Schicksal von Geisterfahrern.
On the contrary.
Dann nix wie weg und zurück in die braune Pißecke.
You're an infantile german postwar leftist, Lüko Willms. Be glad nobody
seems to be able to read and understand your german-language outpours.
Otherwise, most of them would plonk you right away.
The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
2008-09-19 02:21:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
You're an infantile german postwar leftist, Lüko Willms. Be glad nobody
seems to be able to read and understand your german-language outpours.
Otherwise, most of them would plonk you right away.
ROTFLOL

Hey Michi moron, you are the most plonked TROLL I have come across
over the years in all the newsgroups where your trash was posted!
German, Danish, Spanish, Italian or English groups it matters
not......you are plonked in them all.

Stop trolling and seek urgent professional treatment for your mental
condition.

Ördög (Your scary shadow that says "Boo" in the dark)
Brian Rumary
2008-09-21 11:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Regarding the gauge differences, I don't agree with you. All countries that
are visionary and open-minded do realise what an error a gauge different
from standard gauge is.
There is nothing inherently superior in standard gauge as opposed to say 5ft
gauge. It's only an error if you are likely to connect through to a country
with that standard gauge. For instance there is no reason to convert the
railways of the Indian sub-continent from 5ft 6in, as those countries have no
rail connection to standard gauge countries, and there seems little chance
that they will have such connections in future. The same applies to Japan,
Indonesia or New Zealand - all 3ft 6in gauge countries.

Brian Rumary, UK

www.rumary.co.uk
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-21 11:15:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian Rumary
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Regarding the gauge differences, I don't agree with you. All countries that
are visionary and open-minded do realise what an error a gauge different
from standard gauge is.
There is nothing inherently superior in standard gauge as opposed to say 5ft
gauge. It's only an error if you are likely to connect through to a country
with that standard gauge. For instance there is no reason to convert the
railways of the Indian sub-continent from 5ft 6in, as those countries have no
rail connection to standard gauge countries, and there seems little chance
that they will have such connections in future.
Bam - Zahedan might not be too far off. Though the break of gauge is
probably the least of the problems with travelling through Turkey, Iran
and Pakistan to India, and there will still be a ferry leg across Lake Van.


The same applies to Japan,
Post by Brian Rumary
Indonesia or New Zealand - all 3ft 6in gauge countries.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
The Doctor
2008-09-16 19:52:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by valtsu
Actually I think that the Brits start
driving on the right side of the road sooner than Finns - or Russians -
start re-gauging their railroads to standard-gauge.
We Brits *do* drive on the right side of the road ;-)
--
Rob
http://www.uicstock.org.uk/
valtsu
2008-09-17 07:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Post by valtsu
Actually I think that the Brits start
driving on the right side of the road sooner than Finns - or Russians -
start re-gauging their railroads to standard-gauge.
We Brits *do* drive on the right side of the road ;-)
Yes, you most certainly do ;-)

And we Finns maintain 1524 mm gauge rail network as it is best for our
economy. So we agree on these things.
Lennart Petersen
2008-09-16 20:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Does someone know the name for the russian railways newsgroup, even if it
is in russian only? I would like to discuss - or at least address - the
ongoing gauge difference issue between Russia/ex-Soviet Union and
neighbouring countries.
This appears to be a taboo topic in Russia so requires to be addressed
from outside to start things moving. Russia is in the process of renewing
its railways, so this would be the right moment not to continue cementing
this historic error, but use modern sleepers that would permit a later
conversion when the right moment is there.
--------
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
The 1520/1524 net in the former USSR is around 150 000km long and in
addition there's more than 100 000km used by industry. The freight flow
over to the standard gauge in western Europe can't justify the enormous
amount of money to make a gauge conversion.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
It could also be asked if Russia shouldn't permit a standard-gauge link
from Estonia over St Petersburg to Finland if it wishes to remain
connected in broad gauge to Kaliningrad. I know that Estonia and Finland
are broad-gauge countries, but they are only because of their russian
past, so need not remain that way.
--------
Could be reason to remind that the gauge in Finland was a choice from
Finland itself, the alternative in discussion was narrow gauge. In fact
there was no contact to the russian net until the late years of ww.1
Today the main flow of international freight to/from Finland is to broad
gauge Russia, just a little flow to Sweden over
Tornio-Haparanda where there's a gauge conversion machine.
......
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-16 21:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lennart Petersen
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
THINK BIG: The russian network with its incompatible gauge is a huge
stumbling block on the eurasian landmass.

A gauge conversion is by no means ridiculous. There are adjustable sleepers
available today ('traviesa polivalente' in spanish) that permit automatic
conversion through a gauge conversion train of entire lines within few days.
The entire 'soviet' network could be converted within a few months, if well
planned ahead, and at affordable cost.
Post by Lennart Petersen
The 1520/1524 net in the former USSR is around 150 000km long and in
addition there's more than 100 000km used by industry. The freight flow
over to the standard gauge in western Europe can't justify the enormous
amount of money to make a gauge conversion.
Instead of making 'fun' about Wikipedia, you ought to read their article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge . There you have the exact figures:
227 000 km 1520 network (Finland inclued), 720 000 km 1435 network. So the
1435 network is more than 3 times the 1520 network.
Post by Lennart Petersen
Could be reason to remind that the gauge in Finland was a choice from
Finland itself, the alternative in discussion was narrow gauge. In fact
there was no contact to the russian net until the late years of ww.1
Today the main flow of international freight to/from Finland is to broad
gauge Russia, just a little flow to Sweden over
Tornio-Haparanda where there's a gauge conversion machine.
When railways were built, Finland was part of Russia. What choice did they
have?!
Lennart Petersen
2008-09-16 22:10:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
THINK BIG: The russian network with its incompatible gauge is a huge
stumbling block on the eurasian landmass.
A gauge conversion is by no means ridiculous. There are adjustable
sleepers available today ('traviesa polivalente' in spanish) that permit
automatic conversion through a gauge conversion train of entire lines
within few days. The entire 'soviet' network could be converted within a
few months, if well planned ahead, and at affordable cost.
Post by Lennart Petersen
The 1520/1524 net in the former USSR is around 150 000km long and in
addition there's more than 100 000km used by industry. The freight flow
over to the standard gauge in western Europe can't justify the enormous
amount of money to make a gauge conversion.
Instead of making 'fun' about Wikipedia, you ought to read their article
at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_gauge . There you have the exact
figures: 227 000 km 1520 network (Finland inclued), 720 000 km 1435
network. So the 1435 network is more than 3 times the 1520 network.
Including North America,Australia and so on.....
But instead of Wikipedia I'm claiming my "exact figures" from "Jane's world
Railways" and "Railway Directory & Year Book" probably somewhat more
reliable sources.
And to claim that a gauge conversion can be made in months.... that's just
laughable.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
Could be reason to remind that the gauge in Finland was a choice from
Finland itself, the alternative in discussion was narrow gauge. In fact
there was no contact to the russian net until the late years of ww.1
Today the main flow of international freight to/from Finland is to broad
gauge Russia, just a little flow to Sweden over
Tornio-Haparanda where there's a gauge conversion machine.
When railways were built, Finland was part of Russia. What choice did they
have?!
------
And here we can see that you've no knowledge of the history of Finland.
Finland have never been part of Russia, Finland was between 1809 and 1917
an independent principality sharing the same leader as Russia but having
their own Parliament, their own currency and their own economy. As said it
was the decision from Parliament of Finland to finance and build railways in
Finland.
Try to read the book "Alameri: Eisenbahnen in Finnland" and you'll find out
a lot of why broad gauge was chosen. But in fact there was no connection to
the Russian net.
valtsu
2008-09-17 07:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lennart Petersen
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
Could be reason to remind that the gauge in Finland was a choice from
Finland itself, the alternative in discussion was narrow gauge. In fact
there was no contact to the russian net until the late years of ww.1
Today the main flow of international freight to/from Finland is to broad
gauge Russia, just a little flow to Sweden over
Tornio-Haparanda where there's a gauge conversion machine.
When railways were built, Finland was part of Russia. What choice did they
have?!
------
And here we can see that you've no knowledge of the history of Finland.
Finland have never been part of Russia, Finland was between 1809 and 1917
an independent principality sharing the same leader as Russia but having
their own Parliament, their own currency and their own economy. As said it
was the decision from Parliament of Finland to finance and build railways in
Finland.
Try to read the book "Alameri: Eisenbahnen in Finnland" and you'll find out
a lot of why broad gauge was chosen. But in fact there was no connection to
the Russian net.
Quite true. The Finnish and Russian networks were connected as late as
1912 when the Finlyandski railway bridge was built over the Neva River.
VR owned and operated the stretch between the border of the Grandutchy
of Finland and the northern embankment of River Neva up until 1917. The
rail terminal is still called Finlyandsky railway station.

It has to be said, that the Russians - Nikolayevsky Railroad, the
predecessor of present day Oktyabrski rr - was not as keen as VR to
establish the link over the Neva, so the bridge was funded mainly by the
Finnish government as it was much needed for Finnish trade.

The dual-gauge rail link over the Torne River to Sweden at
Haparanda/Tornio was built much later.
Lüko Willms
2008-09-17 09:32:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by valtsu
It has to be said, that the Russians - Nikolayevsky Railroad, the
predecessor of present day Oktyabrski rr - was not as keen as VR to
establish the link over the Neva, so the bridge was funded mainly by the
Finnish government as it was much needed for Finnish trade.
Makes me think of the Fehmarn Belt bridge financed completely by
Denmark.


Cheers,
L.W.
Arthur Figgis
2008-09-17 21:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
Post by valtsu
It has to be said, that the Russians - Nikolayevsky Railroad, the
predecessor of present day Oktyabrski rr - was not as keen as VR to
establish the link over the Neva, so the bridge was funded mainly by the
Finnish government as it was much needed for Finnish trade.
Makes me think of the Fehmarn Belt bridge financed completely by
Denmark.
We'll know when it turns out to be made entirely from very small plastic
bricks :-)
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 08:57:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lennart Petersen
Including North America,Australia and so on.....
But instead of Wikipedia I'm claiming my "exact figures" from "Jane's
world Railways" and "Railway Directory & Year Book" probably somewhat
more reliable sources.
So what you say is that the figurs presented by Wiki are wrong? What figures
does Jane's give?
Post by Lennart Petersen
And to claim that a gauge conversion can be made in months.... that's
just laughable.
Have you read about adjustable sleepers and mechanic gauge conversion? I
suggest you do.
Post by Lennart Petersen
And here we can see that you've no knowledge of the history of Finland.
Finland have never been part of Russia, Finland was between 1809 and 1917
an independent principality sharing the same leader as Russia but having
their own Parliament, their own currency and their own economy. As said
it was the decision from Parliament of Finland to finance and build
railways in Finland.
Try to read the book "Alameri: Eisenbahnen in Finnland" and you'll find
out a lot of why broad gauge was chosen. But in fact there was no
connection to the Russian net.
It is quite possible that your detail knowledge of Finland and it's history
is better than mine.

Still you admit that Finland was closely related to Russia at the time when
they started to construct railways. And of course, already at that period in
history, they will have thought of a later connection to neighbouring
networks. So yes, they may not have 'received an order from Moscow/St
Petersburg', but the facts established by Russia plus geography probably
made them take their gauge decision. An early case of 'finlandisation', if
you will. >.)
Graeme Wall
2008-09-17 07:15:44 UTC
Permalink
In message <***@news.alt.net>
"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
THINK BIG: The russian network with its incompatible gauge is a huge
stumbling block on the eurasian landmass.
A stumbling block for what? There is precious little rail traffic on offer
between Europe and Mongolia, anywhere else in Asia it is easier and cheaper
to send goods by sea. The main traffic on Russian railways is internal
movement of goods and people. For that there is no advantage in going
through all the upheaval of changing the gauge.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
A gauge conversion is by no means ridiculous. There are adjustable sleepers
available today ('traviesa polivalente' in spanish) that permit automatic
conversion through a gauge conversion train of entire lines within few
days. The entire 'soviet' network could be converted within a few months,
if well planned ahead, and at affordable cost.
So you can alledgedly change all the tracks with ease, but what about the
rolling stock? Last time that was changed on any great scale it took 10
years.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Lennart Petersen
The 1520/1524 net in the former USSR is around 150 000km long and in
addition there's more than 100 000km used by industry. The freight flow
over to the standard gauge in western Europe can't justify the enormous
amount of money to make a gauge conversion.
Instead of making 'fun' about Wikipedia, you ought to read their article at
227 000 km 1520 network (Finland inclued), 720 000 km 1435 network. So the
1435 network is more than 3 times the 1520 network.
Totally irrelevant, track gauge is not the only factor, especially when taken
in isolation.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 09:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
A stumbling block for what? There is precious little rail traffic on offer
between Europe and Mongolia, anywhere else in Asia it is easier and cheaper
to send goods by sea. The main traffic on Russian railways is internal
movement of goods and people. For that there is no advantage in going
through all the upheaval of changing the gauge.
Seen under the present condition, a stumbling block for unimpeded (by gauge
breaks) asian/european rail-borne trade. That's the reason why the
standard-gauge link is built between China and Europe, along the southern
russian border. Apart from that, Russia is free to join in railway
transporting, as soon as they're ready to ship something the other
participants are interested in.
Post by Graeme Wall
So you can alledgedly change all the tracks with ease, but what about the
rolling stock? Last time that was changed on any great scale it took 10
years.
'Last time'? Please be specific. You're just spreading rumours.

The gauge conversion in the southern states of the US after the civil war
was done within days - after due preparation of course.
Post by Graeme Wall
Totally irrelevant, track gauge is not the only factor, especially when taken
in isolation.
Again, just allusions, no arguments. Is your mere intention to produce a
certain predetermined mood?
Graeme Wall
2008-09-17 10:17:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
A stumbling block for what? There is precious little rail traffic on offer
between Europe and Mongolia, anywhere else in Asia it is easier and cheaper
to send goods by sea. The main traffic on Russian railways is internal
movement of goods and people. For that there is no advantage in going
through all the upheaval of changing the gauge.
Seen under the present condition, a stumbling block for unimpeded (by gauge
breaks) asian/european rail-borne trade. That's the reason why the
standard-gauge link is built between China and Europe, along the southern
russian border.
I think you will find that line is being projected for political, rather than
practical reasons.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Apart from that, Russia is free to join in railway
transporting, as soon as they're ready to ship something the other
participants are interested in.
Such as? Currently Russia's commercial transport requirements with the
outside world are better served by pipelines or sea than railways.
Internally there is no advantage to them in changing the rail gauge. What
relatively small amount a of cross-border railtraffic that does exist can be
adequately handled by existing multi-gauge stock at a fraction of the cost of
rebuilding and re-equipping their whole rail network.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
So you can alledgedly change all the tracks with ease, but what about the
rolling stock? Last time that was changed on any great scale it took 10
years.
'Last time'? Please be specific. You're just spreading rumours.
Does the date 21-22 May 1892 mean anything to you?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
The gauge conversion in the southern states of the US after the civil war
was done within days - after due preparation of course.
Covered a very small route mileage and the motive power and rolling stock had
to replaced anyway as much of the existing stock had been destroyed in the
hostilities. The replacement stock came, initially, from the northern states
as they had built up a surplus to cope with the wartime traffic requirements.
With the simple lightweight trackage used at that period, gauge changing was
the easy option, especially as you had an excess of cheap labour available
for a short period. Hardly the situation with Russia in the 21st Century.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 11:42:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
I think you will find that line is being projected for political, rather than
practical reasons.
You need politics to implement international arrangements serving practical
purposes. Does this amaze you?
Post by Graeme Wall
Such as? Currently Russia's commercial transport requirements with the
outside world are better served by pipelines or sea than railways.
Internally there is no advantage to them in changing the rail gauge. What
relatively small amount a of cross-border railtraffic that does exist can be
adequately handled by existing multi-gauge stock at a fraction of the cost of
rebuilding and re-equipping their whole rail network.
If you read my sentence properly, then you see that you could have saved
yourself this reply. I already said it all.
Post by Graeme Wall
Does the date 21-22 May 1892 mean anything to you?
Does the date 31 May 1886 mean anything to you?

United States

Originally, various gauges were used in the United States and Canada. Some
railways, primarily in the northeast, used standard gauge; others used
gauges ranging from 4 ft (1,219 mm) to 6 ft (1,829 mm). Given the nation's
recent independence from the United Kingdom, arguments based on British
standards had little weight. Problems began as soon as lines began to meet
and in much of the north-eastern United States, standard gauge was adopted.
Most Southern states used 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge. Following the American
Civil War, trade between the South and North grew and the break of gauge
became a major economic nuisance. Competitive pressures had forced all the
Canadian railways to convert to standard gauge by 1880, and Illinois Central
converted its south line to New Orleans to standard gauge in 1881, putting
pressure on the southern railways.

After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network
was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then
the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two remarkable days
beginning on Monday, May 31, 1886. Over a period of 36 hours, tens of
thousands of workers pulled the spikes from the west rail of all the broad
gauge lines in the South, moved them 3 inches (76 mm) east and spiked them
back in place. The new gauge was close enough that standard gauge equipment
could run on it without problem. By June, 1886, all major railroads in North
America were using approximately the same gauge. The final conversion to
true standard gauge took place gradually as track was maintained. [2]

In the early days of rail transport in the United States, railroads tended
to be built out of coastal cities into the hinterland, and systems did not
connect. Each builder was free to choose its own gauge, although the
availability of British-built locomotives encouraged some railroads to be
built to standard gauge. As a general rule, southern railroads were built to
one or another broad gauge, mostly 5-foot (1.5 m), while northern railroads
that were not standard-gauge tended to be narrow-gauge. When American
railroads' track extended to the point that they began to interconnect, it
became clear that a single nationwide gauge would be a good idea. In 1886,
the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their
tracks over two days, beginning May 31, 1886. They chose a 4-foot-9-inch
(1.4 m) gauge that was then used by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Those tracks
were gradually reduced the remaining half inch to standard gauge later.[3]
Now, the only broad-gauge rail systems in the United States are some city
transit systems, notably BART.

In modern uses certain isolated occurrences of non-standard gauges can still
be found, such as the 5 ft 2Œ in (1,581 mm) and 5 ft 2œ in (1,588 mm) gauge
tracks of the Philadelphia streetcars, the Philadelphia subway cars and the
New Orleans streetcars. The Bay Area Rapid Transit system in the San
Francisco Bay Area, chose 5 ft 6 in (1,676 mm) gauge. The San Francisco
cable cars use the cape gauge of 3 ft 6 in (1,067 mm).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#United_States
Post by Graeme Wall
Covered a very small route mileage and the motive power and rolling stock had
to replaced anyway as much of the existing stock had been destroyed in the
hostilities. The replacement stock came, initially, from the northern states
as they had built up a surplus to cope with the wartime traffic requirements.
With the simple lightweight trackage used at that period, gauge changing was
the easy option, especially as you had an excess of cheap labour available
for a short period. Hardly the situation with Russia in the 21st Century.
Again you forgot that americans then didn't dipose of the technical
possibilities the russians would dispose of today - if they only wanted to.

So: IT'S A MIND THING. The rest is just rationalising, in order to save
you - i e your group ('group dynamics') - from dealing with an issue
considered unpleasant.
Graeme Wall
2008-09-17 15:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
I think you will find that line is being projected for political, rather than
practical reasons.
You need politics to implement international arrangements serving practical
purposes. Does this amaze you?
Congratulations on stating the blindingly obvious, now find some practical
reasons for building the line.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
Such as? Currently Russia's commercial transport requirements with the
outside world are better served by pipelines or sea than railways.
Internally there is no advantage to them in changing the rail gauge.
What relatively small amount a of cross-border railtraffic that does
exist can be adequately handled by existing multi-gauge stock at a
fraction of the cost of rebuilding and re-equipping their whole rail
network.
If you read my sentence properly, then you see that you could have saved
yourself this reply. I already said it all.
If you'd written your sentence properly I might have seen that. However you
didn't.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
Does the date 21-22 May 1892 mean anything to you?
Does the date 31 May 1886 mean anything to you?
Possibly far more tha you could possibly imagine, however I'll take that as
a no.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
United States
Originally, various gauges were used in the United States and Canada. Some
railways, primarily in the northeast, used standard gauge; others used
gauges ranging from 4 ft (1,219 mm) to 6 ft (1,829 mm). Given the nation's
recent
????
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
independence from the United Kingdom, arguments based on British standards
had little weight. Problems began as soon as lines began to meet and in
much of the north-eastern United States, standard gauge was adopted.
A wonderfully contradictory and chronologically implausable arguement.

[snip]
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge#United_States
So you can quote great chunks of a Wikipedia articel. Do you actually have
point to make?
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Post by Graeme Wall
Covered a very small route mileage and the motive power and rolling stock
had to replaced anyway as much of the existing stock had been destroyed
in the hostilities. The replacement stock came, initially, from the
northern states as they had built up a surplus to cope with the wartime
traffic requirements. With the simple lightweight trackage used at that
period, gauge changing was the easy option, especially as you had an
excess of cheap labour available for a short period. Hardly the
situation with Russia in the 21st Century.
Again you forgot that americans then didn't dipose of the technical
possibilities the russians would dispose of today - if they only wanted to.
I haven't forgotten anything, on the contrary you are persistently ignoring
the inconvenient facts that the Russians don't want to regauge, the Russians
don't need to regauge and the Russians can't afford to regauge. However
carry on 'creating facts' if it pleases you.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
So: IT'S A MIND THING.
Is that supposed to be English? And would you mind not shouting, I'm trying
to sleep.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
The rest is just rationalising, in order to save you - i e your group
('group dynamics') -
I am not a group, therefore I don't suffer from 'group dynamics' which
sounds mildly unpleasant.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
from dealing with an issue considered unpleasant.
What issue is considered unpleasant? I thought we were discussing the
rational of gauge changes. I don't see anything unpleasant in that.
--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html>
Lüko Willms
2008-09-17 16:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:17:57 UTC, schrieb Graeme Wall
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
That's the reason why the
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
standard-gauge link is built between China and Europe, along the southern
russian border.
I think you will find that line is being projected for political, rather than
practical reasons.
This would be like the Betouwe Route in the Netherlands.

And also: building a new line is not the same as converting existing
ones. If there is enough traffic for such a UIC-gauge line from China
to Western Europe, let them build it. On the other hand, it makes
sense to extend the existing 1520-mm-wide line to Kosice to Bratislava
and Vienna.

What does _not_ make sense is trying, or forcing, to convert the
whole world's railways to one and the same track gauge. Even in
railway country Switzerland they have lots of narrow track railways,
e.g. the Rhätische Bahn (RhB) in Grischun (Graubünden). Why not?


Cheers,
L.W.
tobias benjamin koehler
2008-09-17 12:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Seen under the present condition, a stumbling block for unimpeded (by gauge
breaks) asian/european rail-borne trade.
Border control procedures take much longer than either changing the
rolling stock (even the old fashioned way by changing the bogies) or
reloading the cargo (containers) on another train.

The 1520 mm area is just too big to convert. Only a small part of the
traffic is crossing the gauge barrier. Even if everything was changed to
1435 mm, there would still be a lot of rolling stock that can operate
only in the ex-1520 mm area because their loading gauge is much more
generous.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
That's the reason why the standard-gauge link is built between China
and Europe, along the southern russian border.
That connection is built for political reasons, so that Russia doesn't
have a monopoly on transcontinental trade.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
The gauge conversion in the southern states of the US after the civil war
was done within days - after due preparation of course.
How much was it, and how much rolling stock did they have to convert?

Look at Spain, which is much smaller, and has embarked the adventure of
gauge conversion which will mean many decades of having two incompatible
gauges in the same country.

I think that a better investment would be:

* System-wide introduction of automatic couplers in all countries still
using the screw coupler

* Implementation of automatic gauge-changing systems. (A multitude of
those exists, but none are currently in regular use between 1435 mm and
1520 mm)

toby
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 13:52:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by tobias benjamin koehler
Border control procedures take much longer than either changing the
rolling stock (even the old fashioned way by changing the bogies) or
reloading the cargo (containers) on another train.
The 1520 mm area is just too big to convert. Only a small part of the
traffic is crossing the gauge barrier. Even if everything was changed to
1435 mm, there would still be a lot of rolling stock that can operate only
in the ex-1520 mm area because their loading gauge is much more generous.
That connection is built for political reasons, so that Russia doesn't
have a monopoly on transcontinental trade.
How much was it, and how much rolling stock did they have to convert?
Look at Spain, which is much smaller, and has embarked the adventure of
gauge conversion which will mean many decades of having two incompatible
gauges in the same country.
* System-wide introduction of automatic couplers in all countries still
using the screw coupler
Agreed. The european automatic coupler does exist, see

http://www.ba-bautzen.de/wirtschaftssenioren/amk/ .

It waits to be introduced on a large scale.
Post by tobias benjamin koehler
* Implementation of automatic gauge-changing systems. (A multitude of
those exists, but none are currently in regular use between 1435 mm and
1520 mm)
No. Nonsense.


Sorry, but everything considered, you're just another simple mind without
visionary capability. Go away, you bore me.
Jerry
2008-09-17 16:14:32 UTC
Permalink
"Michael Laudahn eOpposition"
<***@your.earliest.convenience> wrote in message news:***@news.alt.net...
<snip>
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Sorry, but everything considered, you're just another simple mind
without visionary capability.>
Stop talking about yourself, cretin.
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Go away, you bore me.
Pot, stop trying to call the kettle black...
--
Wikipedia: the Internet equivalent of
Hyde Park and 'speakers corner'...
tobias benjamin koehler
2008-09-26 16:19:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Sorry, but everything considered, you're just another simple mind without
visionary capability. Go away, you bore me.
If you want your arguments to be taken serious, stop insulting all
others please. Thanks.
Lüko Willms
2008-09-16 21:59:37 UTC
Permalink
Am Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:05:21 UTC, schrieb "Lennart Petersen"
Post by Lennart Petersen
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
Mr. Laudahn does not fear to ridicule himself. He made a name in
many newsgroups as a notorious racist and anti-semite. No reason to
waste any second with that fool.


Cheers,
L.W.
D7666
2008-09-16 22:05:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:05:21 UTC, schrieb "Lennart Petersen"
Post by Lennart Petersen
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
Mr. Laudahn does not fear to ridicule himself. He made a name in
many newsgroups as a notorious racist and anti-semite. No reason to
waste any second with that fool.
Cheers,
L.W
.
Noted.

He seems very argumentative too.

--
Nick
Lennart Petersen
2008-09-16 22:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
Am Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:05:21 UTC, schrieb "Lennart Petersen"
Post by Lennart Petersen
There're no such discussions and it's ridicolous to talk about a gauge
conversion.
Mr. Laudahn does not fear to ridicule himself. He made a name in
many newsgroups as a notorious racist and anti-semite. No reason to
waste any second with that fool.
Cheers,
L.W.
Thanks for that information.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 09:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lennart Petersen
Thanks for that information.
In other words, if a german communist lets you know that I have an anti
third-world immigration stance, then my pro standard-gauge arguments can be
dismissed?

Where is the logic? How low can you go?
The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
2008-09-19 02:14:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
In other words, if a german communist lets you know that I have an anti
third-world immigration stance, then my pro standard-gauge arguments can be
dismissed?
You are an arrogant paranoid schizophrenic cyber Nazi troll with an
ugly agenda who is stirring up shit in well over hundred newsgroups
disrupting normal on topic discussions with constant spam and abuse.

Ördög
(Your scary shadow that says "Boo" in the dark)
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 09:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lüko Willms
Mr. Laudahn does not fear to ridicule himself. He made a name in
many newsgroups as a notorious racist and anti-semite. No reason to
waste any second with that fool.
The mask is coming down off the ugly german communist's grimace.
+GF+
2008-09-17 08:45:17 UTC
Permalink
TROLL Alert.
--
+GF+

Whenever you have an efficient government you have a dictatorship. -- Harry
S Truman, Lecture at Columbia University, 28 Apr. 1959

www.ete.org
www.internationalrailfair.com
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Does someone know the name for the russian railways newsgroup, even if it
is in russian only? I would like to discuss - or at least address - the
ongoing gauge difference issue between Russia/ex-Soviet Union and
neighbouring countries.
This appears to be a taboo topic in Russia so requires to be addressed
from outside to start things moving. Russia is in the process of renewing
its railways, so this would be the right moment not to continue cementing
this historic error, but use modern sleepers that would permit a later
conversion when the right moment is there.
It could also be asked if Russia shouldn't permit a standard-gauge link
from Estonia over St Petersburg to Finland if it wishes to remain
connected in broad gauge to Kaliningrad. I know that Estonia and Finland
are broad-gauge countries, but they are only because of their russian
past, so need not remain that way.
Michael Laudahn eOpposition
2008-09-17 09:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by +GF+
TROLL Alert.
Huh ?!
The Latest Breaking News: Hitler is still DEAD.
2008-09-19 01:45:00 UTC
Permalink
"Michael AKA Helicopter Michi Lau-wahn eOpportunist spammer and
newsgroup terrorist spreads his field of trolling to ever more wider
hunting grounds.

<***@your.earliest.convenience>

Lovely fake e-mail address! How about nuking Cyber Nazis instead!
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
Does someone know the name for the russian railways newsgroup,
even if it is in russian only?
LOL
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
I would like to discuss - or at least address - the ongoing
gauge difference issue between Russia/ex-Soviet Union and neighbouring
countries.
In other words you want to troll yet in an other newsgroup. Fuck off
Helicopter Michi Lauwarm. Cyber Nazis aren't welcome anywhere.
Your stupid propaganda you can keep to yourself!
Post by Michael Laudahn eOpposition
This appears to be a taboo topic in Russia ......
Bullshit!
-------------------------------------------------------

Wer ist Michael Laudahn?
Ein Sozialabzocker und Asylant da in Dänemark....
UseNet Spammer, Nazi, mehr scheinst du Wixer nicht zu sein.

<> --
<> Proudly introducing the concept of HATE to the World
<> 'Freedom of speech - abuse it and then ban it!

The above is an excerpt from Helicopter Michi's membership application
sent to the Danish Branch of the Grand United European Neo and
Traditional Nazi Boys Club.

Ördög (Your scary shadow that says "Boo" in the dark)
Either the neocons go or civilisation does!
Fup wie er es verdient!
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