CIV protection redux

[Theo Markettos]

A couple of observations on ticket CIV protection...

Eurostar now no longer send tickets by post. You can collect them from St
Pancras or, for journeys entirely on Eurostar only, print at home. Anyone
had any experiences buying London International tickets recently? Last time
I heard, SWT weren't accepting CIV tickets unless you held the physical
Eurostar ticket - which now doesn't exist unless you visit St Pancras
beforehand.

Also, I spotted that Railteam have something called 'HOTNAT' - hop on the
next available train:
http://www.railteam.co.uk/for-your-journey/railteam-services/

But:
"In the event of a delay that causes you to miss your reserved connection,
you can use your existing ticket to take the next available train – without
any complications or needing to rebook. The ‘Hop on the next available
train’ service is subject to availability and does not guarantee you a seat.

HOTNAT is currently offered in the following stations: Bruxelles, Frankfurt,
Köln, Lille Europe, Lyon Part Dieu, Offenburg, Strasbourg and Stuttgart. The
expansion to all stations served by trains of the Railteam Alliance
(including transfers between stations in Paris) is under development."

Umm... isn't this provided everywhere by CIV by default?
(and can you really just hop on the next train for TGV and Eurostar services?
Presumably you need to speak to someone first?)


My interest is I'm catching a TGV then a flight from France (not back to the
UK), and having difficulty finding travel insurance that will cover if the
TGV is late. SNCF codeshare wasn't available (I did try). If anyone has
any suggestions, I'd be most interested.

Theo

[Mizter T]

Post by Theo Markettos
A couple of observations on ticket CIV protection...
Eurostar now no longer send tickets by post. You can collect them from St
Pancras or, for journeys entirely on Eurostar only, print at home. Anyone
had any experiences buying London International tickets recently? Last time
I heard, SWT weren't accepting CIV tickets unless you held the physical
Eurostar ticket - which now doesn't exist unless you visit St Pancras
beforehand.
[SNIP]

Re the SWT issue - I'd assume that SWT ticket offices would accept the
production of a print-at-home Eurostar ticket, though as you say they're
only available (so far) for E* only journeys. They might be willing to
accept a print off of a booking confirmation for other journeys (e.g. E*
+ TGV).

I understand that Eurostar customer services are quite willing to sell
'London International' CIV tickets over the phone to go with a Eurostar
booking, though I can't immediately find an FAQ answer that conforms
this on their website.

[Barry Salter]

Post by Mizter T
I understand that Eurostar customer services are quite willing to sell
'London International' CIV tickets over the phone to go with a Eurostar
booking, though I can't immediately find an FAQ answer that conforms
this on their website.

Eurostar Telesales sell tickets to "London Eurostar" rather than "London
International", often with cheaper fares than their London International
equivalents, but only as Singles.

So, for example, High Wycombe - London Eurostar is £5.50 Single, whereas
High Wycombe - London International is £11.90 Single, £19.50 Return
(which, incidentally, are the same as the Single and Off-Peak Return
fares for High Wycombe - London Terminals).

Birmingham - London International has Advance fares from £7.50 to £63.50
in Standard and £23.50 to £112.00 in First, and walk-up Singles of
£23.50 (not valid arriving into Euston before 0940, nor departing Euston
before 0915), £79.00 and £127.00.

Birmingham - London Eurostar, meanwhile, offers "walk-up" Singles on
Chiltern for just £9.00(!), and the same range of Advance and "walk-up"
Singles for Virgin as London International.

Cheers,

Barry

[Theo Markettos]

Post by Barry Salter

Post by Mizter T
I understand that Eurostar customer services are quite willing to sell
'London International' CIV tickets over the phone to go with a Eurostar
booking, though I can't immediately find an FAQ answer that conforms
this on their website.

The issue here, AIUI, is that it's not buying the tickets but using them.
When SWT tightened up, I thought you had to carry your physical E* ticket on
the train with the CIV ticket, where a printout wouldn't do. You can
book London International via RailEasy and collect from a machine, but
that's no help if the gripper complains.

Post by Barry Salter
Eurostar Telesales sell tickets to "London Eurostar" rather than "London
International", often with cheaper fares than their London International
equivalents, but only as Singles.

Are these priced on the normal fares database? I can't find them in
brfares.com. Are the conditions described anywhere?

I found:
3885 EUROSTAR I SALES
but that looks like London U1 to me.

Theo

[Roland Perry]

Post by Theo Markettos
Are these priced on the normal fares database? I can't find them in
brfares.com. Are the conditions described anywhere?
3885 EUROSTAR I SALES
but that looks like London U1 to me.

Avantix has Eurostar = 4468, but no fares available.

I wonder where Barry got his £9 Chiltern ticket from, the cheapest
super-off-peak Chiltern ticket for Birmingham - 3885 is around £30.

[Rob]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo Markettos
Are these priced on the normal fares database? I can't find them in
brfares.com. Are the conditions described anywhere?
3885 EUROSTAR I SALES
but that looks like London U1 to me.

Avantix has Eurostar = 4468, but no fares available.
I wonder where Barry got his £9 Chiltern ticket from, the cheapest
super-off-peak Chiltern ticket for Birmingham - 3885 is around £30.

The destination is London Intl (CIV).

[Theo Markettos]

Post by Rob

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Theo Markettos
3885 EUROSTAR I SALES
but that looks like London U1 to me.

Avantix has Eurostar = 4468, but no fares available.
I wonder where Barry got his £9 Chiltern ticket from, the cheapest
super-off-peak Chiltern ticket for Birmingham - 3885 is around £30.

The destination is London Intl (CIV).

For London Eurostar not London International?

London Intl(CIV) (5470) gives:

FIRST CLASS
EFS EURO 1ST SINGLE ◊ 1ST SINGLE ADULT: £127.00 CHILD: £63.50
STANDARD CLASS
EOS EURO STD SINGLE ◊ STD SINGLE ADULT: £79.00 CHILD: £39.50
EVS EURO HIGH SVR S EA ◊ STD SINGLE ADULT: £23.50 CHILD: £11.75

Fares set by VWC. And some advances on Virgin (down to 7.50 single).

There are no fares to LONDN STPAN INTL (1540) or, for good measure, LONDON
WLOO INTL (5465). LONDON ST PANCRS (1555) has the same fares as 0035 LONDON
ZONES 1-6 (there's a £9 Advance on Chiltern).

What the wording for 4468 - brfares.com won't allow lookup by NLC?

Theo

[Roland Perry]

Post by Theo Markettos

Post by Roland Perry
Avantix has Eurostar = 4468, but no fares available.

...

Post by Theo Markettos
What the wording for 4468 - brfares.com won't allow lookup by NLC?

Just plain "Eurostar".

[Roland Perry]

Post by Rob

Post by Roland Perry
I wonder where Barry got his £9 Chiltern ticket from, the cheapest
super-off-peak Chiltern ticket for Birmingham - 3885 is around £30.

The destination is London Intl (CIV).

brfares.com doesn't have it listed, nor does my now slightly out of date
Avantix.

[Barry Salter]

Post by Theo Markettos
Are these priced on the normal fares database? I can't find them in
brfares.com. Are the conditions described anywhere?

The destination is LOE/9934 (LNDON ESTAR CIV) and definitely appears on
brfares.com, as that's where I got the prices from. ;)

Cheers,

Barry

[Roland Perry]

Post by Barry Salter
The destination is LOE/9934 (LNDON ESTAR CIV) and definitely appears on
brfares.com, as that's where I got the prices from. ;)

Oh dear, yet another alternative destination.

btw, the same £9 will buy a FC single on Chiltern instead of the
Standard, if you like.

[Anthony Polson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Barry Salter
The destination is LOE/9934 (LNDON ESTAR CIV) and definitely appears on
brfares.com, as that's where I got the prices from. ;)

Oh dear, yet another alternative destination.
btw, the same £9 will buy a FC single on Chiltern instead of the
Standard, if you like.

Not much use on Chiltern, however.


(Note to pedants: I didn't say "no use".)

[Roland Perry]

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry
btw, the same £9 will buy a FC single on Chiltern instead of the
Standard, if you like.

Not much use on Chiltern, however.
(Note to pedants: I didn't say "no use".)

<Thread convergence> Their "Business Zone" is presumably an intermediate
class between Standard and First (but on trains with no FC).

Would they chuck you out of BZ if you had a FC ticket and didn't pay the
supplement?

[Anthony Polson]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry
btw, the same £9 will buy a FC single on Chiltern instead of the
Standard, if you like.

Not much use on Chiltern, however.
(Note to pedants: I didn't say "no use".)

<Thread convergence> Their "Business Zone" is presumably an intermediate
class between Standard and First (but on trains with no FC).
Would they chuck you out of BZ if you had a FC ticket and didn't pay the
supplement?

I have no idea. But what I do know is that the Business Zone is
available on very few of the trains operated by Chiltern Railways.

[Recliner]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:36:25 +0000, Anthony Polson

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry
btw, the same £9 will buy a FC single on Chiltern instead of the
Standard, if you like.

Not much use on Chiltern, however.
(Note to pedants: I didn't say "no use".)

<Thread convergence> Their "Business Zone" is presumably an intermediate
class between Standard and First (but on trains with no FC).
Would they chuck you out of BZ if you had a FC ticket and didn't pay the
supplement?

I have no idea. But what I do know is that the Business Zone is
available on very few of the trains operated by Chiltern Railways.

It's only in the former first class seats in Mk 3 carriages, isn't it?

[Anthony Polson]

Post by Recliner
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:36:25 +0000, Anthony Polson

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry
Would they chuck you out of BZ if you had a FC ticket and didn't pay the
supplement?

I have no idea. But what I do know is that the Business Zone is
available on very few of the trains operated by Chiltern Railways.

It's only in the former first class seats in Mk 3 carriages, isn't it?

I think it's even more restrictive than that, because the former First
Class seats in the Banbury Mark 3 set are not included. It is only on
the Birmingham services operated with the Mark 3 coaches, being a
small subset of trains operated on that route.

[Recliner]

On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:06:25 +0000, Anthony Polson

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Recliner
On Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:36:25 +0000, Anthony Polson

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry
Would they chuck you out of BZ if you had a FC ticket and didn't pay the
supplement?

I have no idea. But what I do know is that the Business Zone is
available on very few of the trains operated by Chiltern Railways.

It's only in the former first class seats in Mk 3 carriages, isn't it?

I think it's even more restrictive than that, because the former First
Class seats in the Banbury Mark 3 set are not included. It is only on
the Birmingham services operated with the Mark 3 coaches, being a
small subset of trains operated on that route.

OK, less than I thought.

[Peter Smyth]

Post by Roland Perry

Post by Anthony Polson

Post by Roland Perry
btw, the same £9 will buy a FC single on Chiltern instead of the
Standard, if you like.

Not much use on Chiltern, however.
(Note to pedants: I didn't say "no use".)

<Thread convergence> Their "Business Zone" is presumably an intermediate
class between Standard and First (but on trains with no FC).
Would they chuck you out of BZ if you had a FC ticket and didn't pay the
supplement?

It's debatable whether they could chuck you out even if you only had a
Standard ticket and didn't pay the supplement. The Conditions of Carriage
only refer to standard class and first class so any other random names
Chiltern decide to use are merely marketing tools with no legal force.

Peter Smyth

[Barry Salter]

On 15/11/2012 19:49, Peter Smyth wrote:

[Chiltern Business Zone]

Post by Peter Smyth
It's debatable whether they could chuck you out even if you only had a
Standard ticket and didn't pay the supplement. The Conditions of
Carriage only refer to standard class and first class so any other
random names Chiltern decide to use are merely marketing tools with no
legal force.

I would suggest that the necessary force is potentially provided by
Byelaw 19, rather than the NRCoC:

<quote>

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain
in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that
it is reserved for a specific ticket holder or holders of tickets of a
specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be
in that particular place.

</quote>

YMMV, of course...

Cheers,

Barry

[Charles Ellson]

On Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:54:10 +0000, Barry Salter

Post by Barry Salter
[Chiltern Business Zone]

Post by Peter Smyth
It's debatable whether they could chuck you out even if you only had a
Standard ticket and didn't pay the supplement. The Conditions of
Carriage only refer to standard class and first class so any other
random names Chiltern decide to use are merely marketing tools with no
legal force.

I would suggest that the necessary force is potentially provided by
<quote>
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain
in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that
it is reserved for a specific ticket holder or holders of tickets of a
specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be
in that particular place.
</quote>

Not forgetting that being where you do not have a right to be on
another's property is an act of trespass and along with that goes the
Common Law right to use reasonable force to remove the trespasser. In
practice the police will probably do the removal job with the added
bonus of a section 5 POA charge if you don't go nicely.

Post by Barry Salter
YMMV, of course...
Cheers,
Barry

[Rob]

Post by Theo Markettos
Eurostar now no longer send tickets by post. You can collect them
from St Pancras or, for journeys entirely on Eurostar only, print at
home. Anyone had any experiences buying London International tickets
recently? Last time
I heard, SWT weren't accepting CIV tickets unless you held the
physical Eurostar ticket - which now doesn't exist unless you visit
St Pancras beforehand.

SWT now accept print-at-home tickets with the barcode on them. The
requirement for physical tickets was withdrawn last year.

Regards,