Discussion:
NTV: very satisfied with 1st month
(too old to reply)
Oliver Schnell
2012-05-25 08:47:11 UTC
Permalink
According to
http://www.ferrovie.it/ferrovie.vis/timdettvp.php?id=2892
(in Italian)
Google translator will help.

NTV, the operator of the ITALO high speed trains linking
Milan with Rome are quite happy with passenger figures
achieved. The 41% load factor is higher than expected.

Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece
with these trains and would like to report on that?


Oliver Schnell
Giovanni Drogo
2012-05-25 09:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece with
these trains
No and, after the reports I received on some national forums, I would
not do that.

- they depart and arrive from secondary stations
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
- they do not offer restaurant car service
- they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
depending on the time you book
- they do not have a decent ticket office although they have a manned
customer centre. But apparently the men are there just to address
passengers to vending machines.

Not that I'm a fan of Trenitalia but "better the devil you know" :-)

And after hearing what Romiti (former FIAT CEO) told about Berlusconi
and Montezemolo. I won't vote for the latter if he candidates. Nor for
Giulia Sofia :-)
Graeme Wall
2012-05-25 09:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece with
these trains
No and, after the reports I received on some national forums, I would
not do that.
- they depart and arrive from secondary stations
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
- they do not offer restaurant car service
- they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
depending on the time you book
- they do not have a decent ticket office although they have a manned
customer centre. But apparently the men are there just to address
passengers to vending machines.
You mean they are a subsidiary of Ryanair?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Oliver Schnell
2012-05-25 11:38:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece with
these trains
Interesting, that you feel be able to speak for all readers of this ng.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
No and, after the reports I received on some national forums, I would
not do that.
So you have no first hand experience.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they depart and arrive from secondary stations
Wasn't the usage of Milano Centrale for other TOC than TI an issue?
I well remember that the DB/ÖBB Eurocity Munich - Milan was forced to
use Milans Porta Garibalidi staion, as "unfortunately" there was
no capacity available at Centrale station.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
Well, the frequencies and links served will increase. But indeed they offer
no overnight service Milano - Rome.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not offer restaurant car service
http://www.italotreno.it/EN/discover-italo/ambiences-onboard-services/food-drink-service/Pages/overview.aspx
looks not that bad. Better than my experience with the "restaurant car" of
trenitalia the Eurocity Rimini - Munich some years ago.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
depending on the time you book
Doesn't TI has the same?
http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=38a304ae4f9ec210VgnVCM1000003f16f90aRCRD
While I learned from
http://www.italotreno.it/EN/discover-italo/business-travels/Pages/overview.aspx
that one of their "basic" tariff is freely available and fully flexible.
You don't have to book a no change - no refund ticket if you don't like.
Post by Graeme Wall
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not have a decent ticket office although they have a manned
customer centre. But apparently the men are there just to address
passengers to vending machines.
If they assist you on using vending machines, where is the problem?
And
http://www.italotreno.it/EN/discover-italo/partners/Pages/partner.aspx
indicates that there are travel-agencies, where you can buy tickets.
Post by Graeme Wall
You mean they are a subsidiary of Ryanair?
As there are neither "+ taxes" tickets nor really remote stops (similar
distance of Porta Garibaldi to the Duomo in Milan than from Centrale
station) of the trains, I don't think so.


Oliver Schnell
Graeme Wall
2012-05-25 11:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Graeme Wall
Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece with
these trains
Interesting, that you feel be able to speak for all readers of this ng.
Who me?

[snip]>>>
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Graeme Wall
You mean they are a subsidiary of Ryanair?
As there are neither "+ taxes" tickets nor really remote stops (similar
distance of Porta Garibaldi to the Duomo in Milan than from Centrale
station) of the trains, I don't think so.
Humour obviously doesn't translate well.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read, substitute trains for rail.
Railway Miscellany at <http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Giovanni Drogo
2012-05-25 14:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they depart and arrive from secondary stations
Wasn't the usage of Milano Centrale for other TOC than TI an issue?
I well remember that the DB/ÖBB Eurocity Munich - Milan was forced to
use Milans Porta Garibalidi staion, as "unfortunately" ...
Indeed. Until they suppressed at all Milan-Munich.

Anyhow NTV stops at Porta Garibaldi and Rogoredo in Milan and Tiburtina
in Rome.

From where I live/work (not in Domplatz ! :-)) Porta Garibaldi is indeed
reachable in about the same time as Centrale (a couple more metro stops,
but the detour on the belt line after departure is much longer).

Rogoredo is the opposite site (long metro ride) of Milan, could be
rather convenient for those leaving nearby (since it is on the right
direction towards Rome), not for me.

About Tiburtina when I was there long ago it was not a very pleasant
area. Not sure how it is now specially if coming late in the evening
(but one can't, see below).

So I prefer to travel Centrale-Termini
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
Well, the frequencies and links served will increase.
When I was considering a trial for a trip I have to do next July, there
were no NTV trains offered leaving either Milan or Rome after 18-19 and
arriving late at evening.
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not offer restaurant car service
looks not that bad. Better than my experience with the "restaurant
car" of trenitalia the Eurocity Rimini - Munich some years ago.
Quality of service on Trenitalia was varying (while at least a few years
ago DB on Munich-Milan was all right and keeping it open on the entire
route). Used to be rather good in a long past, and even when they were
testing the first non-stop Milan-Rome service (they had different
caterers on each trying because they were testing it). It degraded when
a single caterer was chosen. Then they moved to ETR450 with airline food
tray served at the seat. Then with ETR460-70 it was too expensive for
the canteen type service, plus the obligation to book in shifts and buy
a complete meal.

Last year instead it was a pleasant surprise (I did a day trip having
both lunch and supper on the train). They had abolished the shifts in
favour of free flow, one could get only one course instead of a
complete meal, and the food was prepared on the spot.

I am not sure what I will find next month (the web site now talks of
"bar car" not "restaurant car").

Anyhow it appears (from press releases) that on the few trains were TI
introduced 4 classes instead of 2, they made a step backward to their
original plan in which access to the restaurant car was denied to
passengers of the lower two classes.
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
depending on the time you book
Doesn't TI has the same?
As far as I know there is still a base fare (plus some other contorsions
or extorsions). I generally go to the counter and get the base fare
(unless I'm offered some special offer which suits me ... e.g. if I know
I depart tomorrow I could accept a cheap no-refund fare for the way in,
but I'll take the base fare for the return trip in case I finish
earlier).
Post by Oliver Schnell
If they assist you on using vending machines, where is the problem?
Because the customer who made a complaint on the other forum went to the
travel centre because he hoped to do there something he could not do
online. But was directed to a vending machine which could do exactly the
same. At least the computers behind TI counters (where there are any
left) can do things one cannot do online.


and yes, I am nostalgic of good old times. Not all changes are a
progress (etimology: step forward).
Phil Richards
2012-05-25 19:03:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
depending on the time you book
Doesn't TI has the same?
As far as I know there is still a base fare (plus some other contorsions
or extorsions). I generally go to the counter and get the base fare
(unless I'm offered some special offer which suits me ... e.g. if I know
I depart tomorrow I could accept a cheap no-refund fare for the way in,
but I'll take the base fare for the return trip in case I finish earlier).
NVT do offer a Base (full) fare with ability to change free of charge up
to one hour after departure:

<http://www.italotreno.it/EN/timetables-prices/commercial-offer/Pages/overview.aspx>

Trenitalia's Base fare (on High Speed routes) again offers same
flexibility with option only to change it the once (NVT is unlimited)
--
Phil Richards
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/philstephenrichards>
tim.....
2012-07-26 11:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
Well, the frequencies and links served will increase. But indeed they offer
no overnight service Milano - Rome.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?

tim
Oliver Schnell
2012-07-26 13:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
Well, the frequencies and links served will increase. But indeed they offer
no overnight service Milano - Rome.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?
I do not expect this. The one to whom I answered took that as an
argument why the Italo offer doesn't fit to his needs.



Oliver Schnell
tim.....
2012-07-26 15:50:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not travel in the times I am interested in
Well, the frequencies and links served will increase. But indeed they offer
no overnight service Milano - Rome.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?
I do not expect this. The one to whom I answered took that as an
argument why the Italo offer doesn't fit to his needs.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, Oliver.

I wasn't really asking you personally. I meant why would anyone want it

tim
Oliver Schnell
2012-07-27 06:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by tim.....
Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?
I do not expect this. The one to whom I answered took that as an
argument why the Italo offer doesn't fit to his needs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, Oliver.
I wasn't really asking you personally. I meant why would anyone want it
May be a kind of nostalgia? There were times, when a sleeper only
night train, consisting of 10 cars, was running on the Milan - Rome line.


Oliver Schnell
tim.....
2012-08-01 09:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by tim.....
Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?
I do not expect this. The one to whom I answered took that as an
argument why the Italo offer doesn't fit to his needs.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, Oliver.
I wasn't really asking you personally. I meant why would anyone want it
May be a kind of nostalgia? There were times, when a sleeper only
night train, consisting of 10 cars, was running on the Milan - Rome line.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There still is an overnight (sleeper) service on the classic line, but what
would be the point of running it as a high speed service (for such a
distance)?

tim
Giovanni Drogo
2012-08-13 15:26:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by Oliver Schnell
Post by tim.....
Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?
I do not expect this. The one to whom I answered took that as an
argument why the Italo offer doesn't fit to his needs.
IF I were the one you answered, that's not what I was saying. I said
that when I searched (in May) I could not find NTV trains (in July)
departing either Rome or Milan around 18:00-19:00. Not sleepers.

This is a sort of time which is comfortable if you want to leave Milan
after work, dine on the train (hmm :-() and reach Rome not too late to
reach with public transport an hotel not near the station. Or if you
want to leave Rome after a meeting and be home at a reasonable time.
Post by Oliver Schnell
May be a kind of nostalgia? There were times, when a sleeper only
night train, consisting of 10 cars, was running on the Milan - Rome line.
I guess the all-sleeper service is still there. Obviously it makes no
sense to route it on the high speed line. When at least the
Milan-Bologna and Bologna-Florence high speed did not exist (and
probably also Florence-Rome), sometimes the all-sleeper was routed via
Pavia-Genova-Pisa to make it do the trip in 8-9 hours.

Even with the existence of high-speed TRAINS a night sleeper makes sense
on the same route. You can leave home after supper, catch a train at
23:00 and be at destination around 8:00 ready to start a meeting at
9:00. No high speed train departing at a reasonable time (i.e. when
public transport to the station is available) can beat this.

Of course sleeper trains are also convenient on slower stretches where
the natural travel time is 6-7 hours. Say Milan to Puglia. Only Moretti
(TI CEO) won't understand it. With last winter timetable he curtailed
Turin and Milan to Puglia sleepers to Bologna to Puglia forcing
passengers to a change in late evening. Apparently with summer timetable
he was forced to put them back.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Arthur Figgis
2012-07-26 19:57:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim.....
Why would you expect a high speed line to offer an overnight service?
Aren't there some sleeper high speed trains in China?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Phil Richards
2012-05-25 18:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
- they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
depending on the time you book
Many railways (including Trenitalia) are moving towards a yield managed
fare basis system. They particularly lend well to the high speed train
networks. If you want a competitive railway that only has a fixed,
distance based fares structure then I think you're going to be left
behind there......
--
Phil Richards
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/philstephenrichards>
Giovanni Drogo
2012-05-28 08:13:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Phil Richards
If you want a competitive railway
Should we want it ?

Or not one which carries us where we want when we want in the minimum
sensible time with reasonable comfort at a reasonable fare with no
additional hassles ?
EE507
2012-07-20 12:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece with
these trains
No and, after the reports I received on some national forums, I would
not do that.
  - they depart and arrive from secondary stations
  - they do not travel in the times I am interested in
  - they do not offer restaurant car service
  - they do not offer a simple fixed fare but something arbitrarily
    depending on the time you book
  - they do not have a decent ticket office although they have a manned
    customer centre. But apparently the men are there just to address
    passengers to vending machines.
And appalling seat-window alignment:
http://seat61.com/italo.htm
Incredibly sloppy inattention to detail.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
If you want a competitive railway
Should we want it ?
I don't want cherry-picking privateers that threaten the future of the
network as a whole by adversely affecting cross-subsidies. This can be
seen in the Czech Republic already. On the other hand, some state
operators clearly need to up their game: competition can be effective
in encouraging this.
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Or not one which carries us where we want when we want in the minimum
sensible time with reasonable comfort at a reasonable fare with no
additional hassles ?

Yes please. I am also clearly a jaded and fatuous enthusiast ;-)
Oliver Schnell
2012-07-23 09:00:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by EE507
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Post by Phil Richards
If you want a competitive railway
Should we want it ?
I don't want cherry-picking privateers that threaten the future of the
network as a whole by adversely affecting cross-subsidies. This can be
seen in the Czech Republic already. On the other hand, some state
operators clearly need to up their game: competition can be effective
in encouraging this.
As TI more or less already does cherry-picking (remember their attitude
towards international trains?) I don't see where any competition
against TI could make their offer worse than it already is.


Oliver Schnell
Martin Theodor Ludwig
2012-07-26 18:30:32 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 25 May 2012 11:32:14 +0200, Giovanni Drogo
Post by Giovanni Drogo
Is there anyone of the mtre readers who has already experinece with
these trains
No and, after the reports I received on some national forums, I would
not do that ...
As far as I understand, a further "private" train operator in Italy is
www.arenaways.com who wanted to start overnight trains from Torino via
Alessandria to Bari and Villa San Giovanni starting from July 11, but
had to postpone this start "due to technical issues" and wanted to
inform the public "within a few days" in their press release from July 7
- however, I still don't find any newer on their site. Is it somehow
known what/how/if they are doing?

Martin
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