Threats agaist trenitalia competitors

[Oliver Schnell]

EC trains Munich - Italy must not serve intermediate stations
in Italy from next Sunday
http://www.suedtirolnews.it/d/artikel/2010/12/08/duerfen-fernzuege-nur-mehr-an-endbahnhoefen-halten.html
(in German)

NTV (xxx) is hindered concenring test runs
and the availability of a maintenance centre.
http://www.ntvspa.it/it/ntv/pagine/707/CDA-di-NTV-convocato-d-urgenza.html
(in Italian)

Google translation will help.

May be mtre regulars can provide more details.

[Willms]

Am Wed, 8 Dec 2010 13:53:38 UTC, schrieb Oliver Schnell

Post by Oliver Schnell
EC trains Munich - Italy

private trains of two foreign companies

Post by Oliver Schnell
must not serve intermediate stations in Italy from next Sunday
http://www.suedtirolnews.it/d/artikel/2010/12/08/duerfen-fernzuege-nur-mehr-an-endbahnhoefen-halten.html
(in German)

Isn't the open access just for _transborder_ transports, but not for
transports _within_ the foreign country? No "cabotage" (is that french
word used in english, too?).

Post by Oliver Schnell
NTV (xxx) is hindered concenring test runs
and the availability of a maintenance centre.
http://www.ntvspa.it/it/ntv/pagine/707/CDA-di-NTV-convocato-d-urgenza.html
(in Italian)

You want fierce competition and you got it, and you love the
destructiveness of capitalism. Why do you complain?

Post by Oliver Schnell
May be mtre regulars can provide more details.

Sure, me for example.

NTV has built their own maintenance center in Napoli. If they can't
use it yet, that is their problem, right?

BTW, where is your demand to lower the wages of Italien railway
workers? Or to put them on the dole, as you demand for railway workers
in Germany?


Cheers,
L.W.

[tobias b koehler]

Post by Willms
private trains of two foreign companies

How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?
Why should it matter to the end customer anyway in which country the
administration of the train operating company is located?

Post by Willms
Isn't the open access just for _transborder_ transports, but not for
transports _within_ the foreign country? No "cabotage" (is that french
word used in english, too?).

And if someone wants to travel München - Bolzano? That's certainly not
cabotage. Why shouldn't that be allowed?

Post by Willms
BTW, where is your demand to lower the wages of Italien railway
workers? Or to put them on the dole, as you demand for railway workers
in Germany?

In the end it doesn't matter which company someone is working for.
Especially if Trenitalia, as it seems, isn't able to give the service
that customers demand.

After all, what's a railway for? To transport goods and people
efficiently and safely from A to B? Or to please their staff and
stockholders?

tobias

[Willms]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:37:41 UTC, schrieb tobias b koehler

Post by tobias b koehler

Post by Willms
private trains of two foreign companies

How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?

These "EC" are a private operation of two railway companies (ÖBB of
Austria and DB of Germany) run in a foreign country to make profit.
For that, they broke a long term agreement with the state railway
company of that country to run international trains, called EC by the
cooperation agreements.

Post by tobias b koehler
Why should it matter to the end customer anyway in which country the
administration of the train operating company is located?

There are laws about that. Especially on railways, it is not
possible to have a wild west "free for all" on the rails; this doesnt
work.

Post by tobias b koehler

Post by Willms
Isn't the open access just for _transborder_ transports, but not for
transports _within_ the foreign country? No "cabotage" (is that french
word used in english, too?).

And if someone wants to travel München - Bolzano? That's certainly not
cabotage. Why shouldn't that be allowed?

I haven't had the chance to read the order by the Italian regulation
authority.

Post by tobias b koehler

Post by Willms
BTW, where is your demand to lower the wages of Italien railway
workers? Or to put them on the dole, as you demand for railway workers
in Germany?

In the end it doesn't matter which company someone is working for.

That was not the question, but I referred to Mr. Schnell's frequent
demands to put large numbers of railway workers on the dole, i.e.
effectively to force them to live in poverty from basically charity.

Post by tobias b koehler
Especially if Trenitalia, as it seems, isn't able to give the service
that customers demand.

"it seems" that this is your nationalist prejudice.

Post by tobias b koehler
After all, what's a railway for? To transport goods and people
efficiently and safely from A to B? Or to please their staff and
stockholders?

Those foreign companies who run those so-called "EC" in Italy do it
certainly only for the very last reason: to make profit. Certainly not
to please their staff (ask Mr. Schnell: the staff should be fired).


L.W.

[tobias b koehler]

Post by Willms
Those foreign companies who run those so-called "EC" in Italy do it
certainly only for the very last reason: to make profit.

They respond to a demand - there are people wanting to travel on that
section. (Actually this is affecting the mobility of an entire region.)

That Trenitalia didn't want to operate these trains any more isn't
nationalism, it's a fact. So would you prefer that passengers get out at
the border and continue with Italian local trains? I guess they would
rather travel by road (car or bus) or fly.

It's also a fact that we have a nice railway line Tarvisio - Udine
(Pontebbana) which has only one night train and all daytime travellers
go by bus because the ÖBB couldn't come to an agreement with the FS
about international trains. The "Allegro" agreement of previous years
suddenly wasn't accepted by the Italian side any more.

The offer of international trains from and to Italy has drastically gone
down in recent years, I would say that the Italian railways can at least
partly be held responsible for that. Or who do you think is responsible
for this situation? It wouldn't a problem if the problem of an
uncooperative railway could be circumvented by way of open access, but
now rocks are thrown in the way of that as well, at the expense of
passengers who just want to go to their destination with whatever trains
are available and don't care for the background politics.

Back to the original topic: The trains continue operating for the next
three months and there's likely a lawsuit about how things will continue
after that. We will see what comes out.

tobias

[Neil Williams]

Post by tobias b koehler
It's also a fact that we have a nice railway line Tarvisio - Udine
(Pontebbana) which has only one night train and all daytime travellers
go by bus because the BB couldn't come to an agreement with the FS
about international trains.

Now there's an irony. Is that the same Udine from which the company
"Solari de Udine" originates, whose display equipment is found on
stations throughout Europe?

Neil

[tim....]

Post by tobias b koehler
It's also a fact that we have a nice railway line Tarvisio - Udine
(Pontebbana) which has only one night train and all daytime travellers
go by bus because the BB couldn't come to an agreement with the FS
about international trains.

Now there's an irony. Is that the same Udine from which the company
"Solari de Udine" originates, whose display equipment is found on
stations throughout Europe?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not really ironic, Udine has plenty of trains to local Italian
destinations.

Presumably there is only the one "international" train because that is all
there is demand for

tim

[Giovanni Drogo]

Post by Neil Williams
Now there's an irony. Is that the same Udine from which the company
"Solari de Udine" originates, whose display equipment is found on
stations throughout Europe?

As far as I know there is only one Udine, and that should be it.

Post by Neil Williams
Presumably there is only the one "international" train because that is
all there is demand for

I doubt so.

It is not just a matter of Udine, there are also all destinations or
origins going into Austria through Udine (e.g. Milan and Venice to
Vienna), and there could be other traffic as well (for instance I have a
friend living in Germany, whose parents are originary of Carnia, an
italian area north of Udine. She would be interested to take a train
from Germany to the old family home, but this is no longer possible.

Several long distance day trains, as well as local trains
Tarvisio-Villach did exist some years ago (BEFORE the line was
refurbished !!). Similarly through trains from Milan to Nice existed via
Ventimiglia, or from Milan to Basel and then into Germany, Belgium or
Holland. All things I took some time or some other. Now they do not
exist any more.

[Willms]

Am Mon, 20 Dec 2010 09:15:30 UTC, schrieb Giovanni Drogo

Post by Giovanni Drogo
Several long distance day trains, as well as local trains
Tarvisio-Villach did exist some years ago (BEFORE the line was
refurbished !!). Similarly through trains from Milan to Nice existed via
Ventimiglia, or from Milan to Basel and then into Germany, Belgium or
Holland. All things I took some time or some other. Now they do not
exist any more.

But one can fly from "Düsseldorf" (actually Weeze) to "Milano"
(actually Bergamo) for 22 Euro return trip. Ryanair, "subject to
availability" (I checked for January 10 and 11). Of course, carrying
luggage can increase the invoice dramatically.

There are other offers to fly between Germany and Italy, more
serious than Ryanair, so long distance trains between the two
countries suffer, because they take much, much more time than the
plane, and often cost more. The stretch from Basel to Milano just
takes too long.

That is the real cause, not some bad will be Trenitalia.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Giovanni Drogo]

Post by Willms
But one can fly from "Düsseldorf" (actually Weeze) to "Milano"
(actually Bergamo) for 22 Euro return trip.

No idea where Weeze is wrt Düsseldorf city centre, but anyhow one has to
reach it, perform check in, pass through the security paranoia, stuff
the swiss army knife in checked baggage, hope plane is not delayed and
one has not to wait in a crowded waiting room, collect luggage at Orio,
take a coach from Orio to Milan on a trafficked motorway (not to talk of
the idea of booking in advance and losing the fare if one gets sick, or
of the fact the plane might be at an inconvenient time of the day).

But particularly not talking of the fact one might not be interested in
going end-to-end (Düsseldorf-Milan, or Milan-Vienna) but either from
some (small or not so small) town to some small town, or just touring
around.

In all these cases a good train service is unbeatable. By good train
service I mean what I was used to see in Germany when I lived there in
the '80s, with coordinated long distance and local services, the
Zugbegleiter leaflet on all ICs giving the connections at the various
stations, connections arranged at the same platform without even the
need to take the stairs etc.

Post by Willms
long distance trains between the two countries suffer, because they
take much, much more time than the plane, and often cost more. The
stretch from Basel to Milano just takes too long.

I would not consider THAT too long, although there are cases where a
plane is a must (say Milan to London, or Milan to Palermo). I used to do
Darmstadt-Milan by train (I could go home from work, eat something, take
sleeper [Kurswagen ! through coach !] at 21:30 and wake up in the
morning in Milan, ... in rare cases of a perigee [too long to explain] I
even travelled by day) and back (similarly eat at home, take train
around 23:00, wake up in Mannheim, alight at Darmstadt and walk directly
to work), but I used night trains for Milan-Paris, Milan-Munich,
Milan-Bari (and back in daytime), and of course Milan-Rome (even
nowadays with the Frecciarossa, if you want to start a meeting in the
morning, a night train the evening before is the best solution, compared
to plane+hotel, or waking up very early and get a taxi to station to
catch first Frecciarossa departing before underground opens).

And the above are all point-to-point trips, mainly for business.

If I'd consider also touring trips or private trips, I'd like to travel
by train, maybe stop en route, and see the scenery. All the times I had
to go Milan to Ulm or back, I did it by train (one case train by ferry),
even choosing a slower but more scenic route. And when I did one-week
tours of Switzerland or Austria I did them all by train, exploiting
daytime services which then existed,

And which could be exploited also by the occasional traveller having to
do Ulm to Prato Carnico or whatever.

It is true that trans-Alp trips take long, but why are they then
building the basis tunnel under Brenner and Gotthard ?

Post by Willms
That is the real cause, not some bad will be Trenitalia.

Undoubtedly for SOME people low cost airlines might be attractive, but
not for everybody. Night trains and long distance international trains
(with several stops en route, not just end-to-end) have their case and
could be advertised and promoted. Moretti (Trenitalia's CEO) instead has
quit without fighting.

And his bias against international trains is not just a matter of the
services to Austria via Tarvisio or Brenner, also for Switzerland and
France (why no more any service to Nizza ?).

And even if the route through Tarvisio were an unfruitful one ... I'd
understood if it were closed and dismantled. But they built a new line,
and do not use it !

[Valentin Brückel]

But one can fly from "D=C3=BCsseldorf" (actually Weeze) to "Milano"
(actually Bergamo) for 22 Euro return trip.

No idea where Weeze is wrt D=C3=BCsseldorf city centre,

Practically next door. The fastest route by car (according to Google) is=
=

just 80 km. Using public transportation, it takes only 80 minutes to get=
=

there...

Val

[Willms]

Am Tue, 21 Dec 2010 10:31:06 UTC, schrieb Giovanni Drogo

But one can fly from "Dsseldorf" (actually Weeze) to "Milano"
(actually Bergamo) for 22 Euro return trip.

No idea where Weeze is wrt Dsseldorf city centre,

The Weeze airfield is about 70 km as the crow flies north-north-west
from Düsseldorf, very near to the Netherlands border. A former British
military airfield.

but anyhow one has to reach it, perform check in, pass through the security
paranoia, stuff the swiss army knife in checked baggage, hope plane is not delayed

etc etc. All valid points. As I said, besides the isolated
location, there are also relatively cheap flights from regular
airports; I checked for Tuesday, January 11, and found two Germanwings
flights from Cologne-Bonn airport (at Wahn) to Malpensa for 35.48 Euro
(one way) and an Air Berlin flight from Düsseldorf for 69.51 Euro (all
prices one way). Those flights take 1:25h and 1:35h, where of course,
all the hassles which you described above have to be added. Both
Cologne-Bonn and Düsseldorf airports have direct S-Bahn connections
and a certain number of long distances trains stopping there. BTW,
Germanwings is owned by Lufthansa. Both airlines also offer more
expensive tickets -- it's all "subject to availability" with the magic
word "from" before the prices (without spelling the "upwards").

Train connections from Düsseldorf to Milano are more frequent per
day than those cheapo airlines do offer, but the minimal journey time
is 9:06 hrs, and the cheapest price which I have found for Wednesday,
January 12 in this case was 93.50 Euro one way. Night sleeper trains
to Italy via Switzerland are no longer, and the only sensible sleeper
connection I had found is a sleeper from Düsseldorf to Basel (which
continues to Zürich), and change at Basel into one of the ETR610
services to Milan, a trip which takes still nearly five hours.

You see, even with all the hassle at the airports, the train takes
much longer for such distances. By air, one could make a day trip to
Milano, either for a meeting or for shopping, while spending the
nights at home (the first Germanwings flight is scheduled to land at
8:20 at Malpena, taking off from Cologne at 06:45). With a night
train, one would have to spend two nights in the mobile hotel.

As much as I, too, prefer trains to planes, the economic reality
pushes people for such trips away from the rail to the flying boxes.

And ever faster day trains scratch on the viability of night
trains. For example, one can go in little more than three hours from
Marseille to Paris (about 700 km, I believe) -- why take a night
train, which would have to be slowed down considerably in order not to
arrive in the middle of the night? Sort of the tragedy of the
Concorde, which had been much too fast in order to be usable
economically: it would depart or arrive in the middle of the night at
the other side of the Atlantic on most time slices.

Unfortunately, high speed rail is mostly built for internal traffic
within national borders. Only France has HSLs crossing national
borders (Belgium, Great Britain, and now Spain). And little
Switzerland interposed between Germany and Italy is mostly concerned
about its own rather small regional network, not high speed
connections across that small country.

Consider these city pairs their distances in km (as the crow flies)
and hours on rails:
Milano - Roma: 478 km in 2h59
Milano - Basilea: 255 km in 4h10

I think that even not the opening of the Gotthardt base tunnel will
bring the journey time Basel - Milano down to the average speed on
Milano - Roma.

As to the Travisio issue -- I don't really know much about that. I
remember from a look at a map that the new line bypasses a number of
places on the old route which seemed to be at least important tourist
destinations. When those can no longer be reached by rail... On the
other hand: is the Koralm tunnel under construction in Austria
relevant for the long distance connection which would use the new line
at Travisio?


Cheers,
L.W.

[tobias b koehler]

Post by Willms
other hand: is the Koralm tunnel under construction in Austria
relevant for the long distance connection which would use the new line
at Travisio?

It's all part of the same line - the "Baltic-Adriatic Corridor" from
Gdansk (Poland) via Warszawa, Katowice, Wien, Villach to Trieste,
Venezia, Bologna and Ravenna in Italy:

http://batco.datenkraft.info/en

The projects in Austria:

Wien: Currently a new through station is under construction. The old
south station has been closed and partly dismantled, part of the east
station as well as the S-Bahn tracks are still in operation, but
currently rather unattractive due to insufficient protection from
weather and long walkways for changing passengers. All south traffic
goes via Meidling which is connected to the city by the U6 and S-Bahn
lines. (The west station is still operational, also under
reconstruction, but will lose some of its long distance traffic once the
new central station is finished.)

Semmering (currently a slow and overloaded mountain line - frequently
single-tracked because one track needs to be repaired; curves there are
so tight that welded rail is not possible, tracks are jointed.) A tunnel
was planned and rejected, the remains of that first attempt is an
exploration tunnel. A second tunnel is currently being projected but I
don't know if it has been finalized; the question is whether the town of
Mürzzuschlag with 8828 inhabitants (where the trains Graz - Wien
currently stop but the trains Villach - Wien don't) should be served by
trains going through the tunnel or not. Nothing has actually been built
yet, this will still take a long time.

Koralm: It would allow all trains Wien - Villach to go via Graz while
bypassing several smaller towns (Leoben, Knittelfeld, Zeltweg, Unzmarkt)
in the Mur valley. Also allow for the first time a direct connection
Graz - Villach. (There is a motorway, currently a bus for ÖBB tariff
goes faster than the train ....) The first section (allowing a faster
connection to Deutschlandsberg than the old GKB line) has just been
opened, a new airport station will follow, the biggest and most
expensive section consists of a long tunnel. Some doubt that it would be
worth building it, and say other projects are more important, given that
even after opening that line, the traffic won't be all that important.
They suspect that Austrian rail building projects are mainly in the
interest of the construction industry, not to achieve an optimal
transportation system. But despite just fixing a very controversial
austerity budget, the government has not stopped planning that tunnel
and investing in it.

Pontebbana: Line is already upgraded but it is also the section with the
smallest number of passenger trains of the whole corridor! Rather
absurd; one would wish to have a line of Pontebbana standard in many
other places of the "Baltic-Adriatic Axis".

While the idea of this axis is important in speeches of planners and
politicians, it's rather insignificant at least in passenger traffic
today. The only passenger train using the Pontebbana is the night train
Wien - Roma; the train Wien - Venezia takes a strange detour via
Salzburg. There is a daytime train following the Baltic-Adriatic Axis
from Villach via Brno to Warszawa though - the EC Polonia. As far as
freight is concerned, I frequently see trains of PKP coal cars and
automobile trains transporting Fiat 500 and Panda (which are made in
Poland) going through Leoben (the coal and ore trains ending here
because we have big steel works where they also make long rails).

tobias

[bob]

  Unfortunately, high speed rail is mostly built for internal traffic
within national borders. Only France has HSLs crossing national
borders (Belgium, Great Britain, and now Spain). And little
Switzerland interposed between Germany and Italy is mostly concerned
about its own rather small regional network, not high speed
connections across that small country.

You seem to have forgotten about the worlds largest tunnelling
project, which also meets the EU's definition of high speed rail
(passenger trains at 250 km/h for new build), and is most definitly
not a design focussed on the "rather small regional network", but is
primarily focussed on the Germany-Italy international traffic.

Robin

[Ulf Kutzner]

Post by bob

Post by Willms
Unfortunately, high speed rail is mostly built for internal traffic
within national borders. Only France has HSLs crossing national
borders (Belgium, Great Britain, and now Spain). And little
Switzerland interposed between Germany and Italy is mostly concerned
about its own rather small regional network, not high speed
connections across that small country.

You seem to have forgotten about the worlds largest tunnelling
project, which also meets the EU's definition of high speed rail
(passenger trains at 250 km/h for new build), and is most definitly
not a design focussed on the "rather small regional network", but is
primarily focussed on the Germany-Italy international traffic.

Mostly on freight, with a Transalpine „flat“ railway.

For passenger transportation, there are problems:

D – IT tickets via CH only available without change in Switzerland.

One train per day and direction between D and IT via Switzerland.

Not sure whether any existing multisystem trainset can meet the requiremnts
even with cab signalling upgraded to run the steep HSL via Limburg Süd.

So, most passengers in the GBT are far from being transit passengers.
The demand rose very much for domestic Zürich ↔ Ticino as
travel times were shortened a lot compared to the overall travel time.

Regards, ULF

[Willms]

two amendments to the following:

Am Tue, 21 Dec 2010 17:11:22 UTC, schrieb "Willms"

Post by Willms
Unfortunately, high speed rail is mostly built for internal traffic
within national borders. Only France has HSLs crossing national
borders (Belgium, Great Britain, and now Spain).

Well, there is also the HSL linking Brussels with Amsterdam via
Antwerp and Rotterdam. I stand corrected...

Post by Willms
And little Switzerland interposed between Germany and Italy
is mostly concerned about its own rather small regional network,
not high speed connections across that small country.

Their national plan is to connect to other countries HS networks.

Post by Willms
Consider these city pairs, their distances in km (as the crow flies)
Milano - Roma: 478 km in 2h59
Milano - Basilea: 255 km in 4h10

I was using Düsseldorf to Milano as an example, so let me add the
numbers for the northern part:
Düsseldorf - Basel: 410 km in 4h12 (hourly, with up to 2 changes)


Cheers,
L.W.

[tobias b koehler]

Post by Willms
other hand: is the Koralm tunnel under construction in Austria
relevant for the long distance connection which would use the new line
at Travisio?

It's all part of the same line - the "Baltic-Adriatic Corridor" from
Gdansk (Poland) via Warszawa, Katowice, Wien, Villach to Trieste,
Venezia, Bologna and Ravenna in Italy:

http://batco.datenkraft.info/en

The projects in Austria:

Wien: Currently a new through station is under construction. The old
south station has been closed and partly dismantled, part of the east
station as well as the S-Bahn tracks are still in operation, but
currently rather unattractive due to insufficient protection from
weather and long walkways for changing passengers. All south traffic
goes via Meidling which is connected to the city by the U6 and S-Bahn
lines. (The west station is still operational, also under
reconstruction, but will lose some of its long distance traffic once the
new central station is finished.)

Semmering (currently a slow and overloaded mountain line - frequently
single-tracked because one track needs to be repaired; curves there are
so tight that welded rail is not possible, tracks are jointed.) A tunnel
was planned and rejected, the remains of that first attempt is an
exploration tunnel. A second tunnel is currently being projected but I
don't know if it has been finalized; the question is whether the town of
Mürzzuschlag with 8828 inhabitants (where the trains Graz - Wien
currently stop but the trains Villach - Wien don't) should be served by
trains going through the tunnel or not. Nothing has actually been built
yet, this will still take a long time.

Koralm: It would allow all trains Wien - Villach to go via Graz while
bypassing several smaller towns (Leoben, Knittelfeld, Zeltweg, Unzmarkt)
in the Mur valley. Also allow for the first time a direct connection
Graz - Villach. (There is a motorway, currently a bus for ÖBB tariff
goes faster than the train ....) The first section (allowing a faster
connection to Deutschlandsberg than the old GKB line) has just been
opened, a new airport station will follow, the biggest and most
expensive section consists of a long tunnel. Some doubt that it would be
worth building it, and say other projects are more important, given that
even after opening that line, the traffic won't be all that important.
They suspect that Austrian rail building projects are mainly in the
interest of the construction industry, not to achieve an optimal
transportation system. But despite just fixing a very controversial
austerity budget, the government has not stopped planning that tunnel
and investing in it.

Pontebbana: Line is already upgraded but it is also the section with the
smallest number of passenger trains of the whole corridor! Rather
absurd; one would wish to have a line of Pontebbana standard in many
other places of the "Baltic-Adriatic Axis".

While the idea of this axis is important in speeches of planners and
politicians, it's rather insignificant at least in passenger traffic
today. The only passenger train using the Pontebbana is the night train
Wien - Roma; the train Wien - Venezia takes a strange detour via
Salzburg. There is a daytime train following the Baltic-Adriatic Axis
from Villach via Brno to Warszawa though - the EC Polonia. As far as
freight is concerned, I frequently see trains of PKP coal cars and
automobile trains transporting Fiat 500 and Panda (which are made in
Poland) going through Leoben (the coal and ore trains ending here
because we have big steel works where they also make long rails).

tobias

[John Beaulieu]

Am Tue, 21 Dec 2010 10:31:06 UTC,  schrieb Giovanni Drogo

 But one can fly from "D sseldorf" (actually Weeze) to "Milano"
(actually Bergamo) for 22 Euro return trip.

No idea where Weeze is wrt D sseldorf city centre,

  The Weeze airfield is about 70 km as the crow flies north-north-west
from D sseldorf, very near to the Netherlands border. A former British
military airfield.

but anyhow one has to reach it, perform check in, pass through the security
paranoia, stuff the swiss army knife in checked baggage, hope plane is not delayed

   etc etc. All valid points. As I said, besides the isolated
location, there are also relatively cheap flights from regular
airports; I checked for Tuesday, January 11, and found two Germanwings
flights from Cologne-Bonn airport (at Wahn) to Malpensa for 35.48 Euro
(one way) and an Air Berlin flight from D sseldorf for 69.51 Euro (all
prices one way). Those flights take 1:25h and 1:35h, where of course,
all the hassles which you described above have to be added. Both
Cologne-Bonn and D sseldorf airports have direct S-Bahn connections
and a certain number of long distances trains stopping there. BTW,
Germanwings is owned by Lufthansa. Both airlines also offer more
expensive tickets -- it's all "subject to availability" with the magic
word "from" before the prices (without spelling the "upwards").
   Train connections from D sseldorf to Milano are more frequent per
day than those cheapo airlines do offer, but the minimal journey time
is 9:06 hrs, and the cheapest price which I have found for Wednesday,
January 12 in this case was 93.50 Euro one way. Night sleeper trains
to Italy via Switzerland are no longer, and the only sensible sleeper
connection I had found is a sleeper from D sseldorf to Basel (which
continues to Z rich), and change at Basel into one of the ETR610
services to Milan, a trip which takes still nearly five hours.
   You see, even with all the hassle at the airports, the train takes
much longer for such distances. By air, one could make a day trip to
Milano, either for a meeting or for shopping, while spending the
nights at home (the first Germanwings flight is scheduled to land at
8:20 at Malpena, taking off from Cologne at 06:45). With a night
train, one would have to spend two nights in the mobile hotel.
   As much as I, too, prefer trains to planes, the economic reality
pushes people for such trips away from the rail to the flying boxes.
   And ever faster day trains scratch on the viability of night
trains. For example, one can go in little more than three hours from
Marseille to Paris (about 700 km, I believe) -- why take a night
train, which would have to be slowed down considerably in order not to
arrive in the middle of the night? Sort of the tragedy of the
Concorde, which had been much too fast in order to be usable
economically: it would depart or arrive in the middle of the night at
the other side of the Atlantic on most time slices.
  Unfortunately, high speed rail is mostly built for internal traffic
within national borders. Only France has HSLs crossing national
borders (Belgium, Great Britain, and now Spain). And little
Switzerland interposed between Germany and Italy is mostly concerned
about its own rather small regional network, not high speed
connections across that small country.
  Consider these city pairs their distances in km (as the crow flies)
     Milano - Roma:    478 km in 2h59  
     Milano - Basilea: 255 km in 4h10
  I think that even not the opening of the Gotthardt base tunnel will
bring the journey time Basel - Milano down to the average speed on
Milano - Roma.
  As to the Travisio issue -- I don't really know much about that. I
remember from a look at a map that the new line bypasses a number of
places on the old route which seemed to be at least important tourist
destinations. When those can no longer be reached by rail... On the
other hand: is the Koralm tunnel under construction in Austria
relevant for the long distance connection which would use the new line
at Travisio?
Cheers,
L.W.

Sorry to be so long getting back to the topic. I wasn't thinking of
anything so distant as the Ruhrgebiet to Milano for an EC service
through Switzerland, but rather from the main Swiss cities to Milano.
It may be the intent of the Gotthard Base tunnel to be first for
freight, but the reality is that the tunnel will likely see 200 - 260
kph passenger trains at least a few times per day. This is currently
the case with the Lötschberg Base Tunnel. Add in the Mount Cenari Base
Tunnel and Zürich - Milano should be very competitive rail versus air.

[Willms]

Am Sat, 25 Dec 2010 18:34:55 UTC, schrieb John Beaulieu

I wasn't thinking of anything so distant as the Ruhrgebiet to Milano
for an EC service through Switzerland, but rather
from the main Swiss cities to Milano.

I was thinking about the larger metropoles like Rhein-Main and
Rhein-Ruhr.

It may be the intent of the Gotthard Base tunnel to be first for
freight, but the reality is that the tunnel will likely see 200 - 260
kph passenger trains at least a few times per day. This is currently
the case with the Lötschberg Base Tunnel. Add in the Mount Cenari Base
Tunnel and Zürich - Milano should be very competitive rail versus air.

The Altransit AG's pamphlet promises a reduction of the journey time
from Zürich to Milano by one hour, from 3h40 to 2h40. That's
interesting for the Swiss, but the transit from Germany would come
mainly thru the upper Rhine valley, i.e via Basel, from where the
fastest trains (the ones operated by the ETR610, taking 4h10) do not
go via Zürich and the Gotthard, but via Berne and the Lötschberg and
Simplon tunnels. Via the Gotthard it takes at least half an hour
longer. Cutting the journey time via the Gotthard by one hour, would
reduce the journey time Basel - Milano by only half an hour, remaining
still above the journey times over comparable distances on the
national HSLs. We'll have to wait until 2017 to see that...


Cheers,
L.W:

[Giovanni Drogo]

Post by Willms
I was thinking about the larger metropoles like Rhein-Main and
Rhein-Ruhr.

I may agree that north of Frankfurt/Mainz/Wiesbaden it could not be
competitive for a direct journey (although in my opinion the case for
night trains remains).

Post by Willms
from Zürich to Milano by one hour, from 3h40 to 2h40. That's
interesting for the Swiss, but the transit from Germany would come
mainly thru the upper Rhine valley, i.e via Basel, from where the
fastest trains (the ones operated by the ETR610, taking 4h10) do not
go via Zürich and the Gotthard, but via Berne and the Lötschberg and
Simplon tunnels.

This is something relatively recent, probably due to the opening of the
newer (faster) Lötschberg tunnel. In the '80s all traffic from Basel
(and also from Singen-Schaffhausen) to Milan came down via Gotthard.

Personally, I regularly travelled from Darmstadt to Milan and vv. with a
night train (occasionally at other times of the day, depending on the
hour of perigee :-)). But I believe that when my parents came up to
visit me, they took a day train. I'm pretty sure I once arranged to meet
with my mother in Freiburg (Br.) at some time in the afternoon.

[Ulf Kutzner]

Post by Giovanni Drogo

Post by Willms
I was thinking about the larger metropoles like Rhein-Main and
Rhein-Ruhr.

I may agree that north of Frankfurt/Mainz/Wiesbaden it could not be
competitive for a direct journey (although in my opinion the case for
night trains remains).

Post by Willms
from Zürich to Milano by one hour, from 3h40 to 2h40. That's
interesting for the Swiss, but the transit from Germany would come
mainly thru the upper Rhine valley, i.e via Basel, from where the
fastest trains (the ones operated by the ETR610, taking 4h10) do not
go via Zürich and the Gotthard, but via Berne and the Lötschberg and
Simplon tunnels.

This is something relatively recent, probably due to the opening of the
newer (faster) Lötschberg tunnel. In the '80s all traffic from Basel
(and also from Singen-Schaffhausen) to Milan came down via Gotthard.
Personally, I regularly travelled from Darmstadt to Milan and vv. with a
night train (occasionally at other times of the day, depending on the
hour of perigee

I still believe there were trains Basel – Milan via Brig. I guess you are right
for Schaffhausen.

[John Beaulieu]

  The Altransit AG's pamphlet promises a reduction of the journey time
from Z rich to Milano by one hour, from 3h40 to 2h40. That's
interesting for the Swiss, but the transit from Germany would come
mainly thru the upper Rhine valley, i.e via Basel, from where the
fastest trains (the ones operated by the ETR610, taking 4h10) do not
go via Z rich and the Gotthard, but via Berne and the L tschberg and
Simplon tunnels. Via the Gotthard it takes at least half an hour
longer. Cutting the journey time via the Gotthard by one hour, would
reduce the journey time Basel - Milano by only half an hour, remaining
still above the journey times over comparable distances on the
national HSLs. We'll have to wait until 2017 to see that...

Actually EC 153 Basel - Venezia is a ETR 610 with the December
schedule change and is routed via Luzern and the Gotthard and
scheduled for 4:47 for the Basel to Milano segment, Luzern - Milano
3:32, and Chiasso - Milano 00:40. Still not allowed to tilt on the
Gotthard.

[Valentin Brückel]

[ETR 610]
Still not allowed to tilt on the Gotthard.

I doubt they'll ever be, unless the shed quite a bit of weight.

Val

[Willms]

Am Sat, 1 Jan 2011 09:56:37 UTC, schrieb Valentin Brückel

Post by Valentin Brückel

[ETR 610]
Still not allowed to tilt on the Gotthard.

I doubt they'll ever be, unless the shed quite a bit of weight.

which loses importance once the base tunnel is in operation...


Cheers,
L.W.

[Willms]

Am Sat, 1 Jan 2011 07:38:02 UTC, schrieb John Beaulieu

Post by John Beaulieu
Actually EC 153 Basel - Venezia is a ETR 610 with the December
schedule change and is routed via Luzern and the Gotthard and
scheduled for 4:47 for the Basel to Milano segment,

Yes, that is the normal time via the Gotthard. On the shorter way
via Lötschberg and Simplon, the journey time is 4:10. So, if the
Gotthard base tunnel is cutting one hour off the journey time, the
Basel - Milano journey time would be 3:47, or somewhat more than 20
minutes shorter than via the currently shorter Lötschberg - Simplon
route.


Cheers,
and all the best for the new year to everybody,
L.W.

[Willms]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:32:55 UTC, schrieb tobias b koehler

Post by tobias b koehler
That Trenitalia didn't want to operate these trains any more isn't
nationalism, it's a fact.

no, the above is wrong.

It is ÖBB and DB who deliberately broke the international agreement
to run _European_ trains, EURO-citiy trains. DB makes this quite
clear. To say the opposite is either a lie or a sign of a lack of
information, in which case one should remain silent on the issue.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Giovanni Drogo]

Post by Willms

Post by tobias b koehler

Post by Willms
private trains of two foreign companies

How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?

AFAIK the Italy-Munich trains are operated by a joint venture between
DB, OeBB and LeNord. I am not sure about the shareholders of LeNord, but
a major part of it if not all should belong to Regione Lombardia (a
Regione is sort of, a bit less of, a german Land). Curiously enough,
another joint venture between Trenitalia, LeNord and, I believe, ATM is
running regional trains in Lombardy.

Post by Willms
For that, they broke a long term agreement with the state railway
company of that country to run international trains, called EC by the
cooperation agreements.

Who did break it ? I thought it was Trenitalia's fault, or probably the
crazy mind of its CEO Moretti, which should follow the sort of the
Marketing Division of the Syrius Cybernetics Corporation :-( The same
guy which curtailed services via Tarvisio AFTER the line was
refurbished, or curtalied services to France via Ventimiglia, and is
curtailing sleeper trains (all things I used and found useful).

Post by Willms

Post by tobias b koehler
And if someone wants to travel München - Bolzano? That's certainly
not cabotage. Why shouldn't that be allowed?

Or to Trento, Verona or Brescia, or to pick up passengers there going
abroad.

AFAIK, the rule forbidding intermediate stops has been suspended for 3
months and there are court actions about it.

I also read that the EU parliament just passed a law allowing 1 million
EU citizen to collect signatures to present laws directly to the
Europarliament. Would it be possible to find 1 million train passengers
which would change the current trends, and make railways something
operating in a coordinated way to make easier and more efficient travel?

[Neil Williams]

Post by tobias b koehler
How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?

Just as private, I guess, as the operations of DB Regio AG in the UK?
(Two "franchised" operations and an Open Access service).

Traditionally, international trains were operated by the national
railway of the respective country on their side of the border.

Neil

[Willms]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:56:08 UTC, schrieb Neil Williams

Post by Neil Williams

Post by tobias b koehler
How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?

Just as private, I guess, as the operations of DB Regio AG in the UK?
(Two "franchised" operations and an Open Access service).

No, the trains run by the "Brenner-Kooperation" of DB and ÖBB are
not in the slightest franchised by some Italian transit authority,
there are completely "open access" as WSMR or Hull trains, maybe even
more.

Post by Neil Williams
Traditionally, international trains were operated by the national
railway of the respective country on their side of the border.

But DB and ÖBB did no longer work with Trenitalia on running
international trains. They preferred to run their own trains on
foreign territory in "open access".

Now, I am not sure about the EU regulations regarding the
"liberalisation" (i.e. deregulation and introduction of dog-eat-dog
destructive competition between railway companies), i.e. I believe
that from January 2010 they allowed "open access" cross-border trains,
but not yet deregulated "open access" transports within a given
foreign country. My guess is that this is the issue of the Italian
regulatory authority.

Deutsche Bahn is the most aggressive in going "open access" in other
countries...


Cheers,
L.W.

[John Beaulieu]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:56:08 UTC,  schrieb Neil  Williams

Post by Neil Williams

Post by tobias b koehler
How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?

Just as private, I guess, as the operations of DB Regio AG in the UK?
(Two "franchised" operations and an Open Access service).

  No, the trains run by the "Brenner-Kooperation" of DB and BB are
not in the slightest franchised by some Italian transit authority,
there are completely "open access" as WSMR or Hull trains, maybe even
more.

Post by Neil Williams
Traditionally, international trains were operated by the national
railway of the respective country on their side of the border.

  But DB and BB did no longer work with Trenitalia on running
international trains. They preferred to run their own trains on
foreign territory in "open access".
  Now, I am not sure about the EU regulations regarding the
"liberalisation" (i.e. deregulation and introduction of dog-eat-dog
destructive competition between railway companies), i.e. I believe
that from January 2010 they allowed "open access" cross-border trains,
but not yet deregulated "open access" transports within a given
foreign country. My guess is that this is the issue of the Italian
regulatory authority.
  Deutsche Bahn is the most aggressive in going "open access" in other
countries...
Cheers,
L.W.

I would not be surprised if the SBB is the next to operate trains in
Italy. Trenitalia was unable to maintain the Cisalpino trainsets that
they agreed to do. Now that the Operation is divided it is best if you
catch one maintained by SBB. Trenitalia frequently lets the EC get
stuck behind local passenger trains all the way to Milano, and if it
arrives late they make no attempt to turn the trainset for an on time
departure.

[John Beaulieu]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:56:08 UTC,  schrieb Neil  Williams

Post by Neil Williams

Post by tobias b koehler
How "private" is a train operated by a "state" railway of another country?

Just as private, I guess, as the operations of DB Regio AG in the UK?
(Two "franchised" operations and an Open Access service).

  No, the trains run by the "Brenner-Kooperation" of DB and BB are
not in the slightest franchised by some Italian transit authority,
there are completely "open access" as WSMR or Hull trains, maybe even
more.

Post by Neil Williams
Traditionally, international trains were operated by the national
railway of the respective country on their side of the border.

  But DB and BB did no longer work with Trenitalia on running
international trains. They preferred to run their own trains on
foreign territory in "open access".
  Now, I am not sure about the EU regulations regarding the
"liberalisation" (i.e. deregulation and introduction of dog-eat-dog
destructive competition between railway companies), i.e. I believe
that from January 2010 they allowed "open access" cross-border trains,
but not yet deregulated "open access" transports within a given
foreign country. My guess is that this is the issue of the Italian
regulatory authority.
  Deutsche Bahn is the most aggressive in going "open access" in other
countries...
Cheers,
L.W.

The only country that they operate in Open Access for passengers is
the joint service in Italy. The ICE to France is a partnership with
SNCF, in Switzerland with the SBB, etc. Now if your talking about
freight then sure they are aggressive. Without their competitiveness
railfreight in France is dying. Italy isn't as far down, but the
direction is all wrong. And Trenitalia is involved in Open Access
freight in Germany through its majority ownership of TX Logistics.

[Willms]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:55:32 UTC, schrieb John Beaulieu

Post by John Beaulieu
And Trenitalia is involved in Open Access
freight in Germany through its majority ownership of TX Logistics.

and soon in franchised passenger operations by their takeover of
Arriva Germany.


Cheers,
L.W.

[John Beaulieu]

Am Fri, 17 Dec 2010 18:55:32 UTC,  schrieb John Beaulieu

 And Trenitalia is involved in Open Access
freight in Germany through its majority ownership of TX Logistics.

  and soon in franchised passenger operations by their takeover of
Arriva Germany.
Cheers,
L.W.

In a sense you are correct that DB in particular did chose to break
the agreement. They were embarrassed to operate the service using the
minimally maintained equipment provided by Trenitalia. The situation
in Switzerland is similar, the Swiss government is getting fed up with
the service provided separately by SBB and Trenitalia, just as they
were when the service was provided by Cisalpino. The choice that is
facing SBB is either to break the agreement with Trenitalia or quit
running through trains to Milano altogether. For the moment Trenitalia
is going to cycle the ETR 470 through the workshops for overhaul with
SBB ICN sets providing a substitute service as far as Chiasso. Maybe
things will improve, but I have my doubts. Trenitalia seems focused on
running their own internal high-speed network, and subsidized regional
services, and not much else.

[tobias b koehler]

Trenitalia seems focused on running their own internal high-speed
network and subsidized regional services, and not much else.

Which wouldn't be a problem as long as someone is providing
international trains. Most passengers wouldn't care who's running the
train as long as it exists. The problem here seems to be the combination
of not providing adequate international train services and obstructing
others from filling the gap.

tobias

[+GF+]

The problem here seems to be the combination of not providing adequate
international train services and obstructing others from filling the gap.

Excellent synopsis of the whole situation.


+GF+

"Sinners always have a future, saints always have a past." - Oscar Wilde

www.internationalrailfair.com
www.ete.org

[Willms]

Am Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:47:00 UTC, schrieb tobias b koehler

Post by tobias b koehler
of not providing adequate international train services and obstructing
others from filling the gap.

According to the press release of DB and ÖBB themselves, it is not
the international service which is the problem, but the internal
services _within_ Italy which are so eagerly promoted by the teutonic
"Brennerkooperation" which are outside of the law, according to the
Italian authorities. Hence no hindrances of end-to-end services across
the international border, but no cabotage _within_ the country.

The teutonic chauvinism is really very strong in all these
pronouncements, claiming the "the Italians" have always shown a lack
of respect for all teutonic undertakings "already in World War 1", as
one of them proclaimed.

I wonder why those agitators don't call the Italians by the racist
words they know so well. But that will come, I am sure.



L.W.

[Neil Williams]

Post by John Beaulieu
In a sense you are correct that DB in particular did chose to break
the agreement. They were embarrassed to operate the service using the
minimally maintained equipment provided by Trenitalia.

Do TI still maintain them? I note that the new-Pendolini I see at
Geneva depot still have IT-TI UIC markings rather than CH-SBB, even
though some of them have been reliveried into the (far less
attractive) SBB ICN livery?

Neil

[Willms]

Am Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:00:23 UTC, schrieb Neil Williams

Post by Neil Williams

Post by John Beaulieu
In a sense you are correct that DB in particular did chose to break
the agreement. They were embarrassed to operate the service using the
minimally maintained equipment provided by Trenitalia.

Do TI still maintain them? I note that the new-Pendolini I see at
Geneva depot still have IT-TI UIC markings rather than CH-SBB, even
though some of them have been reliveried into the (far less
attractive) SBB ICN livery?

The fleet has been divided up between SBB/CFF/FFS and TI, but I
think that the ETR610 which are not all delivered, remain as one until
the last one has been delivered and commissioned.

Also, as far as I know, SBB/CFF/FFS does not have the necessary
facilities to maintain neither the ETR470 nor the ETR610, so that they
still have to rely on IT's maintenance depot in Milano.


Cheers,
L.W.

[Neil Williams]

  Isn't the open access just for _transborder_ transports, but not for
transports _within_ the foreign country? No "cabotage" (is that french
word used in english, too?).

Not a word I've heard come up other than in here. But then the UK's
international train connections are pretty simple and stand-alone.

I *thought* the EU rule allowed domestic open access as well - or is
that just another case of the UK going further than necessary?

Neil

[tim....]

Post by Willms
Isn't the open access just for _transborder_ transports, but not for
transports _within_ the foreign country? No "cabotage" (is that french
word used in english, too?).

Not a word I've heard come up other than in here. But then the UK's
international train connections are pretty simple and stand-alone.

I *thought* the EU rule allowed domestic open access as well - or is
that just another case of the UK going further than necessary?

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Germans allow it too

tim